The Defence Budget [superthread]

[Rifleman62]

Yeah, but who really cares. ;D

 

[Remius]

Australian defence spending--smaller armed forces--getting close to twice Canada's (with 2/3 the population), soon at 2% of GDP; Canada' 2019-20 defence budget is at C$ 21.6 billion, scroll way down to Table A2.13a (https://budget.gc.ca/2019/docs/plan/anx-02-en.html#33-Outlook-for-Program-Expenses):

Some governments and countries are serious.

Mark
Ottawa

Yes.  When you are alone in that area of the world you have to be.

 

[dimsum]

Yes.  When you are alone in that area of the world you have to be.

They also, by default, provide air defence for NZ.

 

[MarkOttawa]

And the US will provide for our air defence if we are not up to our NORAD tasks. Putting RCAF's priority on NORAD gives us "defence against help":

Canada-US security arrangements: Still defending against help?
https://www.cigionline.org/articles/canada-us-security-arrangements-still-defending-against-help

Mark
Ottawa

 

[RDBZ]

Australian defence spending--smaller armed forces--getting close to twice Canada's (with 2/3 the population), soon at 2% of GDP; Canada' 2019-20 defence budget is at C$ 21.6 billion, scroll way down to Table A2.13a (https://budget.gc.ca/2019/docs/plan/anx-02-en.html#33-Outlook-for-Program-Expenses):

Some governments and countries are serious.

Mark
Ottawa

There wouldn't be too many metrics against which the ADF would be smaller than the Canadian Forces though.

 

[MarkOttawa]

ADF 60,000 active, 20,000 reserve:
https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=australia

CAF 64,000 active, 30,000 reserve:
https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=canada

Mark
Ottawa

 

[RDBZ]

ADF 60,000 active, 20,000 reserve:
https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=australia

CAF 64,000 active, 30,000 reserve:
https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=canada

Mark
Ottawa

When comparing the ADF and CF, and their funding, two questions seem apparent: for what roles do you really need uniformed personnel, and how long do you spend money on obsolescent equipment, even if it remains serviceable, to the detriment of investment in new platforms and capabilities?

 

[Infanteer]

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the Canadian and Australian budgets by major line items/votes.  The Australian military does not have a defined benefit pension plan - I'm curious how much that takes off the books for them.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Where Canada stands according to NATO's latest numbers (graph w/CAN highlighted in yellow & full NATO doc attached).

 

[Czech_pivo]

When comparing the ADF and CF, and their funding, two questions seem apparent: for what roles do you really need uniformed personnel, and how long do you spend money on obsolescent equipment, even if it remains serviceable, to the detriment of investment in new platforms and capabilities?

I question the information listed in the attachments - it lists the RCN as having 63 ships....they must be including the tugboats and fireboats....in reality its 12 frigates, 10 coastal patrol ships, 4 subs and 1 leased joint civilian/navy AOR, and, in the future, the AOPS.  All the other boats are non-commissioned, the tugs, fireboats, Orcas, etc.

 

[McG]

So the objective is 20% of 2% of GDP (ie. 0.4% of GDP) should be spent on equipment.
We are spending 13.34% of 1.68% of GDP (ie. 0.224% of GDP) on equipment.
That's why we have so many old fleets still suffering rust-out and so many new fleets that are too few in quantity and never seem to have enough parts to keep in operation.

 

[MarkOttawa]

And note the sorry state of the Coast Guard, all of whose large vessels are in need of replacement ASAP:

After third OFSV built still an RCN Joint Support Ship, one CCG Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel and another supply ship to be built before Seaspan can--likely in later 2020s--get to the other 16 ships Justin Trudeau has promised for CCG (in effect complete replacement, along with the six new icebreakers plus the polar one almost certainly for Davie, of whole fleet of large CCG vessels, our media don't yet seem to realize this: 1) https://globalnews.ca/news/5302516/justin-trudea-canadian-coast-guard-renewal/ 2) https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-shipyard-withdraws-complaint-alleging-federal-favouritism-2/):

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Good2Golf]

it appears that this graph does not correct/normalize respective nations’ alliance-supporting budgets to only NATO-specific expenditures? What, for instance does the US allocation to PACOM and other non-NATO/non-European/non-Alliance related operations and activities have to do with supporting the integrity of the Alliance?  If NATO really is such a drain on US forces, why not pull its 65,000 troops out of Europe and Turkey?  The extra troops could then be used elsewhere to advance American interests and not be such a huge burden to the American economy.

#FortressAmerica

Regards
G2G

 

[Cloud Cover]

It would be interesting to know more about this parts issue. They won’t pony money to purchase parts, or is it the case that parts cannot be readily sourced, or is Canada a low priority for parts that are available but not in quantity.

Given the seriousness of this, it can’t just be a little of each? Are some groups being treated more “special” than others? Is one coast favoured over another? Is one of the (seemingly) 3 armies a preferred army?
This is a 20+ billion dollar organization. Surely this parts thing can be solved with planning and money.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Heh, heh, heh ...

William Watson: I'll pay my taxes the way Trudeau funds the military

We shouldn’t be fixated with an arbitrary number, I’ll tell the people at the Canada Revenue Agency. Look at my record. I have consistently stepped up ...

 

[Spencer100]

If this true.....URGH!!!!! 

A 2 billion dollars a year defence and other R&D centre in Alberta.  So like the Liberals lets fund defense but not real defense. And kill two birds with one stone. As if an R&D centre will appease the western alienation problem.  This has got to be dumbest idea plus the weapons researched will have a "climate change" component.  So as you blow up stuff it releases no CO2?

https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/12/04/freeland-is-pushing-trudeau-to-spend-heavily-on-defense-research-in-alberta-to-meet-nato-obligations/?fbclid=IwAR2575g-ynH1laUOOQ0noAEiIDt373m6XPbj8wUW0Pz-bXGmMV1sQ3kgH_s

 

[MarkOttawa]

Buffalo Chronicle is generally considered to be fake news:
https://ipolitics.ca/2019/10/18/facebook-notified-government-of-trudeau-story-deemed-false/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Spencer100]

I don't know anymore.  They were right about the Trudeau payoff.  I would not put ipolitics up too high a standard

We are living in interesting times.  Hell the Babylon Bee has more truth in it than the NY Times these days

 

[The Bread Guy]

They were right about the Trudeau payoff.

:rofl: Were they?  You mean for the injunction against the newspaper that we're still waiting to see?

 

[Quirky]

If this true.....URGH!!!!! 

A 2 billion dollars a year defence and other R&D centre in Alberta.  So like the Liberals lets fund defense but not real defense. And kill two birds with one stone. As if an R&D centre will appease the western alienation problem.  This has got to be dumbest idea plus the weapons researched will have a "climate change" component.  So as you blow up stuff it releases no CO2?

https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/12/04/freeland-is-pushing-trudeau-to-spend-heavily-on-defense-research-in-alberta-to-meet-nato-obligations/?fbclid=IwAR2575g-ynH1laUOOQ0noAEiIDt373m6XPbj8wUW0Pz-bXGmMV1sQ3kgH_s

From the article: "The initiative is being tentatively dubbed ‘Area 53’ "

Area 53 is Cold Lake, except unlike Area 51, they don't let you out.