The Fifth Generation Air Force

[ytz]

I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere. But it's a concept that is really dominating and driving everything at the air staff. In no small part driven by the acquisition of the F-35 and P-8s.

It's more than just platforms.

New trades. The Security Force and Mission Planner will be stood up and are critical to supporting and enabling the new platforms to be used effectively. And space trades now being investigated.

New infrastructure. Not just the fact that there's new hangars. But security requirements basically make new hangars a SCIF. This will substantially change how folks work everyday.

More complete kill chain. There's the AEW platforms, the OTH radar, etc. But what's not talked much on this forum cause most people don't have the interest or comprehension. But space is getting billions in investment. Including for the first the CAF's own surveillance constellation. This changes the acquisition time in the domestic AOI from hours to minutes. And it will come with an overhaul of the software enterprise of how intelligence is processed, exploited and disseminated.

Training. Simulator first is a complete paradigm shift. Right down to how they are building the simulator. The building was designed around the simulator, not the other way around, as was past practice. But not just flight simulators. There will be sims for everything. And they'll be networked to allow for more distributed training.

It's really hard to convey the wholesale transformation of the RCAF being planned. And everyday I go to work, I feel pride at what we're building, along with a tinge of jealousy for the generation coming that will have a completely modern air force.

 

[Furniture]

There's the AEW platforms, the OTH radar, etc. But what's not talked much on this forum cause most people don't have the interest or comprehension.

I hope you're not part of the staff trying to sell this to others... That is the kind of talk that generates active resistance to change.

 

[Baz]

…
Training. Simulator first is a complete paradigm shift. Right down to how they are building the simulator. The building was designed around the simulator, not the other way around, as was past practice. But not just flight simulators. There will be sims for everything. And they'll be networked to allow for more distributed training.
…

Sorry for my cynicism, but…

The training building for Cyclone was built around the simulators in 2010ish, with all the same promises made. Not just flight sims, but tactical, hoisting, and maintenance. The sims were also network compliant but not enabled, in no small part because nobody really had a common understanding of why to network them or who with.

We did a big push to enable the Sea King tactical simulator to be networked, demonstrated it once, and then nothing. One of the racks fell into the hands of the museum because nobody knew what it was.

And the generals were certainly on board. I remember more than once being educated on the future by them and what we were going to do, while I was in the trenches trying to make it work with no resources.

How’s any of that worked out for us?

Hopefully this time they can execute. I think it will provide more benefit then the investment cost, but that initial investment is very high…

 

[ytz]

Commander RCAF on Fifth Generation Air Force:

Exclusive: new Canadian air chief affirms plans for ‘fifth-generation air force’

In an interview with FlightGlobal, newly appointed commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force Lieutenant-General Jamie Speiser-Blanchet says her service remains committed to a sweeping set of modernisations, including fielding Lockheed Martin F-35A stealth fighters.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Quirky]

It's more than just platforms.

New trades. The Security Force and Mission Planner will be stood up and are critical to supporting and enabling the new platforms to be used effectively. And space trades now being investigated.

RCAF wants more than 1,200 security personnel to protect F-35s, other planes

OTTAWA — The Royal Canadian Air Force wants to hire more than a thousand new security personnel over the next five years at bases across the country — just as it brings its new F-35 stealth fighter jets into service. Internal documents from spring 2025, obtained by The Canadian Press through the...

ottawa.citynews.ca

Sounds like one of those new trades. Hopefully this will taper off the reg force WASF model forever.

The Air Force is also looking at taking on new people in the surrounding communities where fighter wings are located, Speiser-Blanchet said.

Reservists?

 

[RangerRay]

RCAF wants more than 1,200 security personnel to protect F-35s, other planes

OTTAWA — The Royal Canadian Air Force wants to hire more than a thousand new security personnel over the next five years at bases across the country — just as it brings its new F-35 stealth fighter jets into service. Internal documents from spring 2025, obtained by The Canadian Press through the...

ottawa.citynews.ca

Sounds like one of those new trades. Hopefully this will taper off the reg force WASF model forever.



Reservists?

Or a DND civilian security force like the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Or a DND civilian security force like the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission?

And with Ontario going all in on nuclear I’m sure that they are in the process of hiring 100-300 new individuals needing similar training as well.

 

[ytz]

Or a DND civilian security force like the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission?

No. It's military.

 

[ytz]

Sounds like one of those new trades. Hopefully this will taper off the reg force WASF model forever.

There will still be WASF. But now they will have pros to work with and train them.

Reservists?

Some. Maybe. But it's planned as a Reg F trade. Especially because of clearances involved.

 

[PuckChaser]

No. It's military.

Other than an expeditionary force, why? Why waste uniform PYs on a predominately Canada-based requirement? We do this with Firefighters, most bases have civilian firefighters and there's military members spread around to do the deployed part. What capability is Comd RCAF willing to go without because they're going to dump 1200 PYs into security? It's a finite game.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Other than an expeditionary force, why? Why waste uniform PYs on a predominately Canada-based requirement? We do this with Firefighters, most bases have civilian firefighters and there's military members spread around to do the deployed part. What capability is Comd RCAF willing to go without because they're going to dump 1200 PYs into security? It's a finite game.

If you remember, there is now a lot of room to grow PY. No need to trade for other capabilities.

 

[ytz]

Other than an expeditionary force, why? Why waste uniform PYs on a predominately Canada-based requirement?

Why are you assuming we don't need Force Pro when we deploy? Also, by your logic most of the CAF can be civilian because most of us don't deploy much if ever.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Other than an expeditionary force, why? Why waste uniform PYs on a predominately Canada-based requirement? We do this with Firefighters, most bases have civilian firefighters and there's military members spread around to do the deployed part. What capability is Comd RCAF willing to go without because they're going to dump 1200 PYs into security? It's a finite game.

The paradigm has shifted. Significantly.

That is why we will be using uniformed armed security forces for both domestic and expeditionary RCAF needs.

 

[dapaterson]

With the RCN and Army both also acquiring equipment that will need military security forces, maybe this could be a purple trade. We could call them the Provost Corps.

 

[RangerRay]

With the RCN and Army both also acquiring equipment that will need military security forces, maybe this could be a purple trade. We could call them the Provost Corps.

Or “Security Branch”…

 

[SupersonicMax]

With the RCN and Army both also acquiring equipment that will need military security forces, maybe this could be a purple trade. We could call them the Provost Corps.

The Air Force has been barking up the security tree for years and no one listened. We designed something for our need. It shouldn’t go purple. You snooze, you lose.

 

[RangerRay]

The Air Force has been barking up the security tree for years and no one listened. We designed something for our need. It shouldn’t go purple. You snooze, you lose.

If you have a Security Branch that doesn’t want to do security…

 

[dapaterson]

The Air Force has been barking up the security tree for years and no one listened. We designed something for our need. It shouldn’t go purple. You snooze, you lose.

The RCAF has been snoozing on security for years.

And if you want to talk snoozing, look at the CID history of the Tactical Control Radar project...

 

[PuckChaser]

Why are you assuming we don't need Force Pro when we deploy? Also, by your logic most of the CAF can be civilian because most of us don't deploy much if ever.

You missed the part when I said exped force. You can construct a largely civilian outfit sprinkled with uniformed members that maintain readiness to deploy. If theyre picked from their bases, there's no impact because you have a civilian backstop.

If you have a Security Branch that doesn’t want to do security…

Ding ding ding.

 

[Good2Golf]

The RCAF has been snoozing on security for years.

And if you want to talk snoozing, look at the CID history of the Tactical Control Radar project...

It wasn’t the CAF/RCAF deciding that Thales was to be paid out after it exchanged its originally-bid candidate system with its Ground master 400 radar that was non-compliant, even when everybody (including TB/TBS and then PWGSC) knew that the LM TPS-77 was the cheapest, lowest-cost compliant system.