The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[ballz]

Sorry, but I get a little irritated every time these debates switch to suicide.

Was the 1995 Firearms Act about preventing suicide? Is Bill C-71 about preventing suicide? Is the potential handgun ban and "assault weapon" ban (i.e. every restricted weapon) about preventing suicides?

Did suicides spur this debate? Are lawful firearm owners being attacked because the suicide rate is too high? Is it suicide they are talking about when they keep talking about how violent our streets are becoming? Are we discussing the "legally purchased and then diverted to the black market" firearms because those are apparently causing suicide? I never once heard Ralph Gooddale mention suicides in all of this.

There is no doubt that suicides are by far the biggest danger that firearms offer, and that suicide prevention is an important part of firearm policy (probably the most important if preventing death is the goal)... but I can't help but find that bringing the topic of suicide into the fold creates a tangent that takes the heat off of those who are trying to use violent crime, gang violence, homicides, mass shooters, etc, as propaganda to disarm lawful citizens, those are the same people who don't give a damn about how many suicides occur and their rhetoric takes away from the possibility of any reasonable policy measures that could be used to prevent suicide or accidental deaths. Anyone who is concerned about suicides should be as angry as firearm owners with the government's agenda.

 

[Loachman]

Hardly the only way. Although not failsafe, certainly one of the more reliable.

Haggis did not say that it was "the only way". He said that it was "the only suicide method that matters".

There is a big difference.

Gun-grabbers do not care about the poor unfortunates that leap from tall buildings, lie down on railway tracks, ram their cars into bridge abutments, or hang themselves etcetera. They only care when firearms are used. And, even then, they don't actually care about the people. They only care that an inanimate object that they unreasonably hate and fear and want to take away from people like me was used, and want them all banned even though restrictions and bans do not affect suicide rates. That is why they use the term "gun deaths" and not "deaths".

Yes, "gun deaths" can be reduced, but overall suicide and homicide rates tend not to be affected by such restrictions and bans.

How many gun-grabbers does it take to change a light bulb?

None. They just pass a law banning burnt-out light bulbs and stumble around wondering why it is still dark.

Sorry, but I get a little irritated every time these debates switch to suicide.

Was the 1995 Firearms Act about preventing suicide?

They claimed that, back then, as partial justification for the legislation - even though they had the same information that we had.

Reductions of deaths and injuries really had nothing to do with it, though. It was always only about votes - and mainly votes in Quebec. They cashed in - and continue to cash in - on the memory of the Ecole Polytechnique tragedy. Emotion over logic.

There is no doubt that suicides are by far the biggest danger that firearms offer

Firearms do not, and cannot, "offer danger". Triggers do not, and cannot, pull fingers.

Absent a human operator, firearms can do nothing at all.

and that suicide prevention is an important part of firearm policy (probably the most important if preventing death is the goal

Firearm policy cannot influence suicide prevention one whit. Firearms legislation is completely impotent as a means of suicide  - and homicide - reduction.

Well, not completely. Restricting possession by honest citizens does not reduce is impotent. Reducing restrictions has proven benefits, however.

The US has seen significant reductions in homicides, rapes, assaults, and robberies in most jurisdictions that have reduced or eliminated restrictions on non-felonious citizens and certain people with adjudicated mental health problems. The "bad" areas - which drive and distort the US national homicide rate - tend to be large, Democrat-controlled cities with extremely- and unreasonably-restrictive policies, and even certain specific smallish neighbourhoods within those cities. There are several states with lower homicide rates than Canada - New Hampshire and Vermont are two such. Either or both are now "constitutional-carry" states, in which no permit is required for either open or concealed carry by citizens with no criminal background or certain categories of mental illness. Nunavut was, for at least one year recently, the territory/province/state in Canada and the US with the highest homicide rate.

Anyone who is concerned about suicides should be as angry as firearm owners with the government's agenda.

Yes - if they cared to study the actual facts and evidence with open minds. Few people understand firearms. Few people have ever handled one, let alone fired one. They are influenced by fictional movies and television programmes, and anti-gun media and government propaganda.

They have been taught to fear what they do not understand. It is called "hoplophobia".

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am not going to enter the gun debate but I will provide a little not-objective, personal observation: Here in Montreal, where anti-gun/gun grabbers have the most sway and where, I suspect, you probably have the lowest gun ownership rates in the country, we have the subway stopped for a few hours for unspecified "technical" reasons (and everybody in Montreal know what those are - jumpers) about twice a week - with all the delays and late arrivals that entails. Yet, when I was a kid and guns were more easily available, you never even had more than one or two of those a year.

I know that is not scientific, but it's a fact. At the same time, the Federal government invested millions in a suicide prevention barrier on the Jacques-Cartier bridge pedestrian walkways. it is now impossible to jump from the bridge to your death in the river below. Yet, that's been up for ten years now and the suicide rate in Montreal didn't drop.

Go figure!

 

[Loachman]

Here in Montreal, where anti-gun/gun grabbers have the most sway and where, I suspect, you probably have the lowest gun ownership rates in the country

I don't think that the ownership rate is significantly different. A lot of Quebeckers love to hunt as much as anywhere else. They don't seem to have been as vocal as owners eslewhere - who are already not vocal enough.

we have the subway stopped for a few hours for unspecified "technical" reasons (and everybody in Montreal know what those are - jumpers) about twice a week - with all the delays and late arrivals that entails.

And the traumatic effect on crews and those who have to clean up the mess.

Statistically, a head-end crewmember (conductor or engineer), will kill at least one person in a twenty-year career.

We got sent to check a section of the CN mainline near the lakeshore on the western edge of Toronto for a potentially suicidal person sometime after midnight one night when I was flying the Police Helicopter Trial. He had been drinking heavily at a local bar, and announced his intentions to his buddies just before leaving. We searched along the tracks for several kilometres in either direction, well beyond the distance that he could have run, let alone staggered, with no sign of him. One of the coppers on the ground had phoned CN, to see when the next train was due past. Buddy would have lain on the tracks for almost 1.5 hours, in the cold, before getting "lucky". The only humanoids that we saw were fishing along the banks of a small stream that passed under a bridge carring the mainline over it. We were astounded that anybody would be fishing at that time (it was, by then, somewhere around 0200), but passed the location to the ground guys. They found our quarry huddled under the bridge - and also told us that the fisherpeoplekind were all Chinese (I still do not know whether or not that was of any significance, or a particular Chinese fishing custom). Buddy was taken to a hospital for observation and treatment, and we all felt pretty good about things.

We found out later that he'd been successful in the same area a few days after we thought that we'd saved him. He'd seemed in a good mood at the same bar, said a cheery goodnight to his friends and, this time, made no mentioned of his intent.

At the same time, the Federal government invested millions in a suicide prevention barrier on the Jacques-Cartier bridge pedestrian walkways. it is now impossible to jump from the bridge to your death in the river below. Yet, that's been up for ten years now and the suicide rate in Montreal didn't drop.

Toronto wasted a few million on an anti-suicide net on the Bloor Street Viaduct across the Don Valley several years ago, which was a popular spot for jumpers (somebody, I think a councillor, had referred to it as a "romantic" location for suicides). This, obviously to all non-experts, was a wasted effort, as there is no shortage of other tall structures around. Or railway tracks, or ropes etcetera. The only part that would have made sense would have been the section that crosses the Don Valley Parkway a few hundred feet below: six lanes with an occasionally-attainable 90 km/hr speed limit. To the best of my knowledge, however, nobody had ever been so inconsiderate as to launch his/herself into a car below, but it would not have been an unreasonable safety precaution.

 

[Jed]

Rural Quebec culture is pretty insular. They own guns and be damned if some modi Anglais or Big City gars will tell them what to do.

 

[mariomike]

Toronto wasted a few million on an anti-suicide net on the Bloor Street Viaduct across the Don Valley several years ago, which was a popular spot for jumpers (somebody, I think a councillor, had referred to it as a "romantic" location for suicides).

The Bloor Viaduct was North America's No. 2 suicide draw. Second only to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco.

To the best of my knowledge, however, nobody had ever been so inconsiderate as to launch his/herself into a car below,

Oh, they have.

And the traumatic effect on crews and those who have to clean up the mess.

Only bothered me once. Some joker sounded the Operator's horn twice, while my partner and I were crawling under a subway with flash lights picking up the pieces.

Two blasts on the horn was the "Go" signal. Guess he thought it was funny. Not! 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why do I feel like we did the whole suicide thing already?

Still the same charges, still the same sensible facts in reply?

Nothing has changed has it? Did I miss something?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Did some quick checking, but it's tricky because there seems to be conflicting stats.


In one study I'm seeing that during the 1980s and 90s firearms and hanging were the leading 1st & 2nd (respectively) methods of suicide in Canada with a rate of around 13 cases per 100'000 people.

In the mid and later 2000s it appears that hanging (suffocation) and poisoning were the leading methods used, and the rate dropped to around 11 per 100k.

In nuvavut its between 60 and 70 suicides per 100k.

Other studies suggest that hanging and poisoning were always the leading cause of suicides in Canada.

Two family members I've had commit suicide one was hanging and the other vehicular, the latter having access to firearms and ammunition.


What I find irksome is that anti-gun proponents often seem to try and relate increasing gun control with preventing suicides but their prevention/help concerns don't go beyond gun control debates. Don't use deaths of people you don't otherwise care about to push an agenda.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Did some quick checking, but it's tricky because there seems to be conflicting stats.


In one study I'm seeing that during the 1980s and 90s firearms and hanging were the leading 1st & 2nd (respectively) methods of suicide in Canada with a rate of around 13 cases per 100'000 people.

In the mid and later 2000s it appears that hanging (suffocation) and poisoning were the leading methods used, and the rate dropped to around 11 per 100k.

In nuvavut its between 60 and 70 suicides per 100k.

Other studies suggest that hanging and poisoning were always the leading cause of suicides in Canada.

Two family members I've had commit suicide one was hanging and the other vehicular, the latter having access to firearms and ammunition.


What I find irksome is that anti-gun proponents often seem to try and relate increasing gun control with preventing suicides but their prevention/help concerns don't go beyond gun control debates. Don't use deaths of people you don't otherwise care about to push an agenda.

That is the forte of many governments.........and news agencies. Dance on the graves of the dead to try bolster a lacking opinion or perspective.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Rural Quebec culture is pretty insular. They own guns and be damned if some modi Anglais or Big City gars will tell them what to do.

Ditto Northern Ontario.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ditto Northern Ontario.

Sorry fellas. That feeling is not singular to those two areas. Gun owners right across the country hold that sentiment.

 

[Haggis]

The Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence will hold hearings on Bill C-71 again next Monday.  The witness list has yet to be posted.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The events in NZ will be used to punish legal gun owners in Canada, done by the same people who say we cannot hold Muslim there or here responsible for the action of other Muslims elsewhere. That disconnect galls us.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The events in NZ will be used to punish legal gun owners in Canada, done by the same people who say we cannot hold Muslim there or here responsible for the action of other Muslims elsewhere. That disconnect galls us.

Again, at the risk of thread drift, if it does hapoen in Canada, it will not be sold as punishment. It will be a public safety measure. The fact that tens of thousands of Canadians stand to lose thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in property and many sporting goods stores will cease to exist, is neither here nor there, in the minds of official Ottawa.

 

[observor 69]

Again, at the risk of thread drift, if it does hapoen in Canada, it will not be sold as punishment. It will be a public safety measure. The fact that tens of thousands of Canadians stand to lose thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in property and many sporting goods stores will cease to exist, is neither here nor there, in the minds of official Ottawa.

Looks like we follow the model of most countries. "How to Buy a Gun in 16 Countries"
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/02/world/international-gun-laws.html

 

[Haggis]

During today's SECD hearings, Liberal Senator Marilou McPherdran proposed Bill C-71 be amended to make all handguns prohibited.  She states this must be done now as the government is running out of time before the next election.  it was only a matter of time before this happened and it can be accomplished without C-71 being passed but by a simple OIC.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Found some interesting charts in this article about three Americans pleading guilty to firearms trafficking offences (here's the September 2018 state attorney's news release on the charges), so sharing the charts so people who know more about this than me can check out & pick apart as needed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hopefully, should it come to it, I hope it comes with a very robust buy back program.

I'll could use that money to try get a visa somewhere more copacetic.  :rofl:

 

[Haggis]

Hopefully, should it come to it, I hope it comes with a very robust buy back program.

The most vocal anti-gun groups are dead set against any buyback schemes.  In their opinion, why should the government pay to purchase illegal property?  Just seize and destroy it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This sucks.

I just want my kids to be safe at school and not worry about some psychopath shooting up the school, then take then shooting at the range after school.

Not looking forward to stripping down my pistols and ARs to turn in bare-bones receivers.

Should probably pick up a few more NR rifles come to think of it.


If the government thinks the SNC bullshit would cost a lot of jobs the shooting community is going to knock their rainbow socks off.

A quick glance at a message forum that has just some of the firearms/ammo/target/sporting shit for sale in Canada shows 126 businesses- that's alot of (actual, non SNC-bullshit) jobs and stock to lose.

If there's around 950'000 legally owned handguns in Canada (not counting what's in stock in stores) at an average of $750 per handgun thats + $712 million dollars in private property. I doubt the government can afford a buy back program.