The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Colin Parkinson]

Why 12ga may be prohibited  https://s3.amazonaws.com/CSSA/PDF/SOR2020-96-CSSA-Legal-Opinion-re-12-gauge-shotguns.pdf

 

[mariomike]

Just a thought but where was this poll taken?

For detailed results by age, gender, region, education, and other demographics,

http://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020.04.30_Gun-Control_PR-Tables_Demos.pdf

 

[Haggis]

Minister Blair has reached out to the CSSA and CSAAA via Twitter to set the record straight and to correct their misunderstanding.  .10 and .12 ga shotguns are not banned.

 

[mariomike]

.10 and .12 ga shotguns are not banned.

Thank-you for that information, Haggis.

 

[my72jeep]

Minister Blair has reached out to the CSSA and CSAAA via Twitter to set the record straight and to correct their misunderstanding.  .10 and .12 ga shotguns are not banned.

Back peddling, the liberals don’t want to piss off the duck hunters yet, they are not ready for that fight quite yet.
But all it will take is one over zealous LEO or fish cop and bam someone’s 870 is prohib. My$0.02.

 

[FSTO]

A telling stat.
No, never owned a gun 73%

Maybe they should have asked if you have ever handled/fired a weapon to get more of a handle on firearms knowledge in Canada. Or maybe the government doesn't want that information?

 

[Stoker]

Minister Blair has reached out to the CSSA and CSAAA via Twitter to set the record straight and to correct their misunderstanding.  .10 and .12 ga shotguns are not banned.

Yes a misunderstanding but convinces me that this OIC was put together last minute as they banned an airsoft rifle and a .308 bolt action.

 

[Fabius]

Bill Blair has indicated on twitter ( a non official non binding social media platform) that 10 and 12 gauges are not banned.

The Government OIC published in the Canada Gazette ( a formal official means of updating regulations and policy) specifically and unequivocally states that firearms with a bore of over 20mm are prohibited.

10 gauge and 12 gauge sizes are .780 inches (19.80mm) and .727 inches (18.46mm).

All the above statements of fact.  However modern shotguns have bores that do not necessarily align to SAAMI gauge sizes and are in fact slightly larger to accommodate manufacturing processes for removable chokes. This is also fact as exhibited by manufacture specifications and the CSSA legal opinion. Bore measurements are an area of interpretation but common practice and legal understanding indicates that removable chokes could be seen as not counting and therefore we would be measuring bore sans installed choke tubes, again this is over the gauge size.

The question is are we now prohibited by gauge size or bore size?  Since the OIC specifies bore size not gauge we would be going with bore size and hence Bill Blair is actually wrong. I understand that may not have been their intent but until the OIC is redone and reissued it is at minimum a grey area subject to court interpretation.

A million twitter blasts does not change that. Only a formal redaction and reissuing of the OIC does, although the governments own rules on policy may prevent that.

Poorly worded and drafted regulations lead to this sort of confusion of understanding.  Any organization or company or person reading and then following the regulation as written should not be blamed for the poorly written regulations. Until we get formal official clarification from the government we can't just assume "Oh well they couldn't possibly have meant that".

That is akin to issuing poor, confusing and contradictory direction of subordinates then yelling at them for not doing exactly what you envisioned. 

I do not think they meant to do what they have done with regards to the 20mm bore prohibition, but without formal clarification they have opened a grey area that a twitter message can't close.
However that said I will also not ascribe to Bill Blair any level of trust or confidence that when he says anything it is actually backed by best intentions towards any type of continuing legal ownership of firearms by Canadians.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yes a misunderstanding but convinces me that this OIC was put together last minute as they banned an airsoft rifle and a .308 bolt action.

Exactly. I'll wait until I see Bill Blair's explication why the firearms lawyer was wrong.

 

[Haggis]

Thank-you for that information, Haggis.

You're welcome, but this isn't the US so a Tweet from a minister who was never a lawyer or a judge doesn't have the force of law.  Strict interpretation is what courts go by.  Case law will determine the validity of the 20mm bore diameter firearms ban.

The question is are we now prohibited by gauge size or bore size?  Since the OIC specifies bore size not gauge we would be going with bore size and hence Bill Blair is actually wrong. I understand that may not have been their intent but until the OIC is redone and reissued it is at minimum a grey area subject to court interpretation.

A million twitter blasts does not change that. Only a formal redaction and reissuing of the OIC does, although the governments own rules on policy may prevent that.

The end result may be a revised OIC closing all the loopholes identified on social media and withdrawing the hated grandfathering to appease the gun grabbers.

I've heard that Conservative MP Glen Motz will be presenting E-Petition 2341 today.  Too little, too late.  Less than 10% of PAL holders in Canada signed it and the legislation it was intended to oppose has already been passed.

However, a new petition has been created demanding the last ban be rescinded and has garnered over 64000 signatures in 24 hours.  At this rate it could easily surpass E-2341 (175K+).

 

[Kat Stevens]

When was the last time a petition actually achieved anything in Canada, other than making those who signed it feel good about "doing something", I mean?  The Canadian government, and this one in particular, is deaf to the will of the people, unless it aligns with their own objectives.

 

[Jarnhamar]

When was the last time a petition actually achieved anything in Canada, other than making those who signed it feel good about "doing something", I mean?  The Canadian government, and this one in particular, is deaf to to the will of the people, unless it aligns with their own objectives.

Never?
Trudeau could get handed a petition with 30 million verified signers and he would blabber about 80% of (1500) Canadians from the agnus reid poll anonymously votes to ban guns after being given a confusing question with a bullshit phrase so that's what he's going by.

 

[suffolkowner]

When was the last time a petition actually achieved anything in Canada, other than making those who signed it feel good about "doing something", I mean?  The Canadian government, and this one in particular, is deaf to the will of the people, unless it aligns with their own objectives.

I don't think the Liberals are deaf to the will of the people, the gun ban is I think very popular. The problem is that the country is very much split on this issue along I think a primarily urban/rural divide. Thus 70% of the population is making the rules for 70% of the country by area. More and more I have come to question how this dynamic will play out perhaps if the Windsor to Quebec corridor and east were to be split off from Canada West, sort of the Old Canada/New Canada that ERC has talked about

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

I don't think the Liberals are deaf to the will of the people, the gun ban is I think very popular. The problem is that the country is very much split on this issue along I think a primarily urban/rural divide. Thus 70% of the population is making the rules for 70% of the country by area. More and more I have come to question how this dynamic will play out perhaps if the Windsor to Quebec corridor and east were to be split off from Canada West, sort of the Old Canada/New Canada that ERC has talked about

It's difficult for me to determine how popular it really is. You will see the odd Angus-Reid poll of 1500 people that suggest support, but then I contrast that with online polls that are always overwhelmingly "pro-gun". I recognize that the latter is not as scientific but I think it supports my anecdotal observations that the majority of Canadians are largely indifferent/undecided/neutral and don't see themselves as having a dog in the fight, so they are okay with a gun ban because they see it as not effecting them but are not necessarily all in favour.

However, Toronto seems to be a more strongly "anti-firearms" place and there are a massive number of votes there. Anti-gun legislation certainly won't negatively impact LPC election prospects since their supporters are going to keep voting LPC, the pro-gun people never voted for them anyway, and the majority "in-between" are not invested in the argument.

I don't really see a separation you mention happening anytime soon, but who knows what the future holds. I suspect that the cultural divide will only grow larger not smaller as time moves on.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looks like they banned the Black Rifle Company BRC15B;

Line (z.117) in the ban list.

Is that some kind of obscure AR15 that's not turning up on a Google search or did the Liberals just ban a brand of coffee? 

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

Is that some kind of obscure AR15 that's not turning up on a Google search or did the Liberals just ban a brand of coffee?

Looks like it's an obscure AR-15: https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/black-rifle-brc-556mm/

 

[Jarnhamar]

Whoops my mistake thanks. That's a nice looking rifle.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Minister Blair has reached out to the CSSA and CSAAA via Twitter to set the record straight and to correct their misunderstanding.  .10 and .12 ga shotguns are not banned.

So removable choke shotguns have magically shrunk their bore to less than 20mm?

 

[Remius]

So removable choke shotguns have magically shrunk their bore to less than 20mm?

Bad legislation.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looks like the CCFR is taking the Liberal government to court.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nHoD3DXaXQ