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The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

Haggis

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Brihard said:
I've not seen many actual cops out on the road doing police stuff who are enthused about the new gun laws.

No worries.  On Nov 25, 2020, when being questioned by MP Glen Motz, Minister Blair said he does not intend to have law enforcement administer the confiscation program. So far, no one has put forth a response to two RFPs on this program.

I guess WE gets another shot at a sole-source government contract?
 

Jarnhamar

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Online abuse prompts firm to pull out of federal government's gun buyback program
An Ottawa-based staffing company has cancelled a federal contract related to Ottawa’s proposed rifle buyback program after facing a barrage of social-media abuse from people opposed to the government’s gun policies.

The online fracas was condemned by Public Safety Minister Bill Blair, who is overseeing the government’s efforts to ban and take possession of tens of thousands of semi-automatic rifles in the hands of legal gun owners.

“It is unacceptable that the gun lobby has promoted threats, intimidation and harassment of people who are just trying to do their jobs,” said Mary-Liz Power, a spokeswoman for Mr. Blair. “This is reckless and completely unacceptable.”
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-online-threats-prompt-firm-to-pull-out-of-federal-governments-gun-buy//

(could be a paywall)


I suspect Bill Blair and the Justin Trudeau will count on stories like this to argue they tried really really really hard to find companies to facilitate a by back program giving fair market value for firearms but now will just have to confiscate them without compensation.
 

RocketRichard

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Jarnhamar said:
Online abuse prompts firm to pull out of federal government's gun buyback program https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-online-threats-prompt-firm-to-pull-out-of-federal-governments-gun-buy//

(could be a paywall)


I suspect Bill Blair and the Justin Trudeau will count on stories like this to argue they tried really really really hard to find companies to facilitate a by back program giving fair market value for firearms but now will just have to confiscate them without compensation.
Well it certainly is not a good look on CCFR. Will not help the ‘Firearms rights’ crowd.


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Haggis

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Jarnhamar said:
I suspect Bill Blair and the Justin Trudeau will count on stories like this to argue they tried really really really hard to find companies to facilitate a by back program giving fair market value for firearms but now will just have to confiscate them without compensation.

Fair market value for a firearm you cannot sell, transfer or export is zero dollars.  Expect  no more than it's value as scrap/recyclable material to be paid out and that amount will probably be taxable.
 

Jarnhamar

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RomeoJuliet said:
Well it certainly is not a good look on CCFR. Will not help the ‘Firearms rights’ crowd.


Agreed people being dick heads online look bad, and I'm guessing neither side is above pretending to be someone from the other camp to try and make each other look even worse.

I'm sure the lines are drawn in the sand already though and people's minds are made up. For, against and don't care.

I read the original story said threats and it was changed to abuse since there weren't any actual threats being made.

The abuse being leveled at Chinese and Chinese Canadians seems worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/canada/vandalism-bad-reviews-threats-toronto-area-chinese-restaurant-feels-the-heat-from-beijing-loyalists/wcm/9b083ee6-b0f2-4241-8a3b-6278af2252d5/amp/

 

RocketRichard

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Jarnhamar said:
Agrees people being dick heads online look bad, and I'm guessing neither side is above pretending to be someone from the other camp to try and make each other look even worse.

I'm sure the lines are drawn in the sand already though and people's minds are made up. For, against and don't care.

I read the original story said threats and it was changed to abuse since there weren't any actual threats being made.

The abuse being leveled at Chinese and Chinese Canadians seems worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/canada/vandalism-bad-reviews-threats-toronto-area-chinese-restaurant-feels-the-heat-from-beijing-loyalists/wcm/9b083ee6-b0f2-4241-8a3b-6278af2252d5/amp/
We agree there dude that online can bring out the worst in people.


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Haggis

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IBM has been awarded a $1.2M contract to develop a potential buyback compensation scheme to support the May 1, 2020 OIC. IBM has until Feb 8, 2021 to "consult with other federal agencies, possibly other levels of government and industry experts to devise options that include:

-- a compensation plan for each affected firearm;

-- analysis of benefits and risks associated with each compensation model; and

-- identification of "other considerations" that might affect the feasibility of each approach.

A second phase of the project will entail any necessary review and revision of the program design, as well as implementation of the selected options."

They spent more than double this on the RCMP's mass mailings to gun owners in mid 2020.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Well it certainly is not a good look on CCFR. Will not help the ‘Firearms rights’ crowd.


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I doubt the Liberals care, they will confiscate them sooner or later. Stretching this out gives them something to throw out to their supporters next election.
 

Jarnhamar

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I wonder if IBM Canada's suggestions will include gun owners being required to pre-register the firearms they will be turning for confiscation in order to qualify for compensation.
 

Haggis

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I wonder if IBM Canada's suggestions will include gun owners being required to pre-register the firearms they will be turning for confiscation in order to qualify for compensation.
That's actually a great idea! When did you start working for IBM?
 

Jarnhamar

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That's actually a great idea! When did you start working for IBM?
I'd like to take the credit but I think I came across that idea for the new Zealand gun ban. If I remember correctly they wanted people to register their guns on a site before bringing them to the police confiscation points to see what the government would offer them. They had armed guards at the door and once you walk in your gun is staying whether you like the price you're given or not.

Great observation up thread about fair market value. Fair market value of a gun you can't sell is $0.
 

Eaglelord17

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I like how the tender is to include 3 potential compensation plans, basically the government actually acknowledging that they are likely going to screw people with the value and not give the fair price. I am just hoping this all ends up grandfathered and the Conservatives can reverse it when they get in next (as unfortunately they seem to be the only party willing to remotely come to bat for firearm owners).
 

Fishbone Jones

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Agreed people being dick heads online look bad, and I'm guessing neither side is above pretending to be someone from the other camp to try and make each other look even worse.

I'm sure the lines are drawn in the sand already though and people's minds are made up. For, against and don't care.

I read the original story said threats and it was changed to abuse since there weren't any actual threats being made.

The abuse being leveled at Chinese and Chinese Canadians seems worse.

People are scared, angry and feeling abandoned by their government and parties. They will move through the various steps of protest. Talking amongst themselves. Contacting local representatives. Contacting their national representatives. Turn to organized, like minded organizations for action. When none of those work, or seem to work, the frustration level boils over. At that point they will resort to almost anything, including online abuse of those they feel responsible. Especially when they see people like Blair being hypocritical with his slander against gun owners, then accusing them of the same thing he's doing himself. When backed into a corner, with all defences either ignored or removed, they will either give up and capitulate or they will bare fang and claw and use whatever they have at their disposal to survive. Every party, save one, is flat out anti gun. Except the conservatives, who have shown zero support, leaving it all on the shoulders of our own home grown, grassroots organizations.
 

Haggis

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I am just hoping this all ends up grandfathered and the Conservatives can reverse it when they get in next (as unfortunately they seem to be the only party willing to remotely come to bat for firearm owners).
The OIC has one mention of a potential grandfathering provision. However, the usual ant-gun supporters of the Liberals, along with the Bloc and NDP opposed it. The anti-gunners want the core legislation (Firearms Act, Criminal Code) amended as quickly as possible to remove any possible current grandfathering and prevent future governments from easily reversing these changes.
 

Eaglelord17

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The OIC has one mention of a potential grandfathering provision. However, the usual ant-gun supporters of the Liberals, along with the Bloc and NDP opposed it. The anti-gunners want the core legislation (Firearms Act, Criminal Code) amended as quickly as possible to remove any possible current grandfathering and prevent future governments from easily reversing these changes.
Oh I know, they want it all banned and destroyed as then even if reversed you still can't replace what is lost (and odds are it won't be reversed if that happens).

Grandfathering however does happen to be the easiest choice for them. Reduced non-compliance (even New Zealand which they are all praising currently only has a 33% compliance rate), no risk of the police getting shot enforcing this, no gun owners getting shot for the audacity of owning these firearms, no huge expenditure of funds to purchase the firearms and less people are angry with you (or not as angry I should say). Long term it is also the easiest solution as the 'Highlander' method slowly works to the end like what is happening with all the current 12.x firearms owners.
 

Haggis

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Oh I know, they want it all banned and destroyed as then even if reversed you still can't replace what is lost (and odds are it won't be reversed if that happens).

Grandfathering however does happen to be the easiest choice for them. Reduced non-compliance (even New Zealand which they are all praising currently only has a 33% compliance rate), no risk of the police getting shot enforcing this, no gun owners getting shot for the audacity of owning these firearms, no huge expenditure of funds to purchase the firearms and less people are angry with you (or not as angry I should say). Long term it is also the easiest solution as the 'Highlander' method slowly works to the end like what is happening with all the current 12.x firearms owners.
Reversal of a ban entrenched in legislation will be almost impossible with a Liberal dominated Senate. The only hopes for those affected is either in the legal challenges being mounted (an extreme long shot) or a change of government prior to the legislation going through making this permanent.

Personally, I expect the courts will refuse to hear any of the challenges.
 

Haggis

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Yesterday, Federal Court Associate Chief Justice Jocelyne Gagné heard arguments from a number of appellants asking for an injunction against the Liberal's OIC ban of last May. The judge stated that this was the highest attended judicial process in the history of the Federal Court, and that’s without letting everyone in. (800 participated via Zoom).

During the late morning's proceedings, the anti-gun group Polysesouvient, posted a screenshot on Twitter of the judge, accompanied by disparaging remarks. It was quickly removed in the early afternoon after the judge reminded everyone that such actions were illegal.

The hearing concluded late in the afternoon and the judge has reserved her decision.
 
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