The Great Gun Control Debate

[Loachman]

https://nfa.ca/news/information-act-responses-expose-rcmp-inconsistencies-high-river

 

[Mister Donut]

From CGN:

Just in from the NFA Facebook page.

Swiss Arms Confiscated

Effective 10:00 pm eastern tonight the RCMP has reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status. There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that the firearms, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 be surrendered. The government is suggesting that all affected firearms owners contact the distributers from which the firearms were purchased for reimbursement.

The NFA encourages all affected owners to contact their federal Member of Parliament.
Swiss Arms Confiscated Effective 10:00 pm eastern tonight the RCMP has reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status. There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that the firearms, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 be surrendered. The government is suggesting that all affected firearms owners contact the distributers from which the firearms were purchased for reimbursement. The NFA encourages all affected owners to contact their federal Member of Parliament.

 

[Lightguns]

The RCMP want them so the Conservatives can shoot themselves in the foot.  What a stupid thing to do in the year leading up to a election.  They are going to bleed votes because of this. Gun owners, vets, soldiers are all but gone from the cause.

 

[dangerboy]

I don't think this will factor at all in the elections, most people could not care at all about a weapon becoming reclassified.

 

[Ostrozac]

As I understand it this seems pretty straightforward to me -- and it's not really a reclassification. It seems that it has been discovered that the Swiss Arms Green is a variant of the Sig550 (which has been prohibited for many years) -- but it took the RCMP about 15 years to actually figure that out. 15 years during which the Swiss Arms was sold by licensed dealers. Shouldn't the appropriate authorities have examined the weapon prior to it being imported into Canada in large quantities?

Now, a new order-in-council bringing in new prohibited weapons would actually be a big deal. But I don't think this case is -- it's just incompetence on the part of whoever declared the Swiss Arms Green to be non-restricted in the first place. Or, if the rifle isn't actually a Sig550 variant, then it's incompetence on the part of the current examiners.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yay Nanny State!

 

[Remius]

I don't think this will factor at all in the elections, most people could not care at all about a weapon becoming reclassified.

Yep.  No one except gun owners (more specifically those gun owners) are really going to care.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yep.  No one except gun owners (more specifically those gun owners) are really going to care.

The worst part about this whole thing is we did this to ourselves!  My understanding is that this whole issue began with a feud between two rival gun stores in Calgary.  One of them ended up calling the RCMP who subsequently launched a probe et voila... all Swiss Arms rifles now banned in Canada.

This is why SOME law-abiding gun owners don't trust the police.

 

[Loachman]

The whole classification system is a mess. It needs to go.

If the government had kept its promise to repeal the Liberal Firearms Act (C-68), instead of making it its own, idiocy like this would not be happening.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yep.  No one except gun owners (more specifically those gun owners) are really going to care.

This is a repost from one of my earlier comments, on another thread.

They've also pissed off (on?) another group that gave them lots of support. So much support, in fact, that a large part of Chris Alexander's support, campaigning and money came from gun owners that wanted Mark Holland knocked out. Which happened by a slim margin. It is possible CA would not be in Parliament today had it not been for gun owners. The long gun registry demise was one small part of the promises made by the CPC to support gun owners. However, since that time they have turned a blind eye to incidents like High River, allowed the provincial CFOs and Crown Attorneys to run amok making up their own rules and let the RCMP reclassify and confiscate firearms that have never been a threat, to name a few. Gun owners on other forums talk openly about no longer sending them money, taking out memberships nor planning on voting for them.

Gun owners despised Mark Holland. He was the epitome of the classic gun hater and was the sitting Liberal justice critic and wanted all guns gone.

Chris Alexander beat him last election. Chris Alexander's winning margin was very slight. It really could have gone either way. Gun owners from across the country poured money into his campaign and many gun owners actively worked knocking on doors and working his election run. In the end he just squeaked by Mark Holland. It is just speculation, but if it had not been for the hundreds of gun owners that contributed to his run, he might not be employed in the HoC today.

The gun lobby is not a small fringe. Their loyalty does make a difference. Any party that discounts that, does it at their own peril.

 

[Loachman]

Kim Campbell's anti-firearms legislation drove many votes straight from PC to Reform as well. She lost her seat, as did all but two PC MPs, in the following election. Coincidence?

This government is following the same path.

And just before Kim Campbell became leader of the PC party and briefly PM, Brian Mulroney had slashed the defence budget too.

"This has all happened before, and will happen again".

 

[Remius]

There are more factors than the gun vote that led to the Conservatives demise in 1993.  The deficit, the recession, the GST, Free trade, the failed constitutional talks (which led to the formation of the Bloc) the Reform Party etc etc.  Gun legislation was a very minor issue in that regard when compared to those factors. 

While I agree that gun control is an issue for some ridings (I do believe that some MPs careers hang on that balance in some but few ridings) it isn't really a national problem per se.  (until we have another mass shooting then the knee jerk reactions will appear).  I'm sure that for the people of Lanark, this is an issue but for the people of Toronto they don't care as long as there are less guns on their streets. 

We have a complacent population.  They won't care if a particular rifle is banned either.  Most really don't care that the gun registry was scrapped.

The economy is front and centre.  Then a whole host of issues that come before gun control.

If the gun lobby in Canada was as influential as some think, then the CPC would have scrapped the registry a long time ago, but didn't until recently.

But, death from a thousand cuts.  I think the CPC will need every single vote, next time round and alienating this group just adds to others, military, vets etc etc.  Makes for a bigger wound in the end.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is a repost from one of my earlier comments, on another thread.

Gun owners despised Mark Holland. He was the epitome of the classic gun hater and was the sitting Liberal justice critic and wanted all guns gone.

Chris Alexander beat him last election. Chris Alexander's winning margin was very slight. It really could have gone either way. Gun owners from across the country poured money into his campaign and many gun owners actively worked knocking on doors and working his election run. In the end he just squeaked by Mark Holland. It is just speculation, but if it had not been for the hundreds of gun owners that contributed to his run, he might not be employed in the HoC today.

The gun lobby is not a small fringe. Their loyalty does make a difference. Any party that discounts that, does it at their own peril.

Agree completely, there are a couple of million firearms owners in Canada.  Many rural Canadians hunt and have a shared interest in firearms and you are right, people who discount the gun lobby do so at their own peril.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There are more factors than the gun vote that led to the Conservatives demise in 1993.  The deficit, the recession, the GST, Free trade, the failed constitutional talks (which led to the formation of the Bloc) the Reform Party etc etc.  Gun legislation was a very minor issue in that regard when compared to those factors. 

While I agree that gun control is an issue for some ridings (I do believe that some MPs careers hang on that balance in some but few ridings) it isn't really a national problem per se.  (until we have another mass shooting then the knee jerk reactions will appear).  I'm sure that for the people of Lanark, this is an issue but for the people of Toronto they don't care as long as there are less guns on their streets. 

We have a complacent population.  They won't care if a particular rifle is banned either.  Most really don't care that the gun registry was scrapped.

The economy is front and centre.  Then a whole host of issues that come before gun control.

If the gun lobby in Canada was as influential as some think, then the CPC would have scrapped the registry a long time ago, but didn't until recently.

But, death from a thousand cuts.  I think the CPC will need every single vote, next time round and alienating this group just adds to others, military, vets etc etc.  Makes for a bigger wound in the end.

Except that gun owners are more likely to vote, volunteer and donate money than the average joe/jane, making their influence expand beyond their numbers. At the Liberal convention Wayne Easter stated that gun control cost the Liberals 60 seats, that is no small number.

 

[Remius]

Wayne Easter also has no data whatsover to back that up.  Which ridings exactly?  The ones that went NDP?  That would be strange.

The rural vote?  Did the Liberals really have a chance with those?

Maybe the suburban vote?  Doubtful.

The Liberals lost a lot seats but again, gun control was not the biggest issue in regards to that. 

People didn't like the gun registry.  The over balloned cost to start it up is what peeved many voters more than teh fact that certain guns were banned or prohibited.

If they make it an issue at the debates or during the election we'll see but it won't be a big ticket item I bet.

I can agree that there is an impact.  But not the impact that is being implied.  The PCs weren't wiped out because of gun control and the liberals didn't lose 60 seats because of it either.  It just pissed off voters that weren't going to vote for them anyways.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

The liberals lost a lot of ridings in favour of the NDP's orange crush wave here in Kwebek. The cult of personality around Layton it was. The vast majority Kwebekians don't vote for rational reasons but with their emotions. Hence, they thought Layton was ''un bon Jack'' so they voted for him. Needless to say my CPC vote was crushed by the orange crush in my own riding as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Wayne Easter also has no data whatsover to back that up.  Which ridings exactly?  The ones that went NDP?  That would be strange.

The rural vote?  Did the Liberals really have a chance with those?

Maybe the suburban vote?  Doubtful.

The Liberals lost a lot seats but again, gun control was not the biggest issue in regards to that. 

People didn't like the gun registry.  The over balloned cost to start it up is what peeved many voters more than teh fact that certain guns were banned or prohibited.

If they make it an issue at the debates or during the election we'll see but it won't be a big ticket item I bet.

I can agree that there is an impact.  But not the impact that is being implied.  The PCs weren't wiped out because of gun control and the liberals didn't lose 60 seats because of it either.  It just pissed off voters that weren't going to vote for them anyways.

You could see the agreement in the room with his assessment of the situation. While gun owners may only represent 4 million people at best, keep in mind that a significant chunk of the population can't or won't vote. So a motivated minority can have significant influence and that factor will be very hard to track, as few if any people are going to answer a telephone survey asking if they are a gun owner. I know many gun owners that went out of their way for their CPC candidate volunteering, donating and going door to door to raise money and to get the vote out. Having 5 dedicated volunteers  on your campaign going the extra mile will have impacts out of proportion to their numbers. Some things can't really be measured and this is one of them. Gun owners can show their displeasure by not donating and volunteering which would remove that influence and ripple effects. while the CPC may still win, the margins are much tighter. It's up to gun owners to say why they aren't interested in donating and not just remain silent. as example my MP remained silent on the CCG base issue until I stuffed my letter into a CPC donation envelope. Then I got a response (tepid at best) but it shows you they are aware of what hurts their pocket book.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

The reclassification of the SAN Classic Green has nothing to do with it being too similar to the Sig550 but rather the Forensic Ident Team found that majority of the Classic Greens were not actually purpose built semi-auto, rather they were converted autos. Under the arbitrary C-68 and the infinite power and wisdom of the CFO, converted autos are always deemed prohibited; instead they just banned the entire brand and model instead of finding a way to stop the distribution of these converted autos. The RCMP is concerned it'd be too easy for people to convert them back to auto.

http://tv-presspass.com/swiss-arms-in-canada-the-full-story/

 

[PuckChaser]

I fail to see how something converted specifically to fire only in semi-automatic is somehow extra dangerous than a firearm that is semi-automatic from the factory. If its illegal to convert to automatic, its illegal. Banning firearms because someone might break the law and change them back with them is asinine.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I fail to see how something converted specifically to fire only in semi-automatic is somehow extra dangerous than a firearm that is semi-automatic from the factory. If its illegal to convert to automatic, its illegal. Banning firearms because someone might break the law and change them back with them is asinine.

They should ban hockey sticks becuase people might use them for an unintended purpose and thus cause harm or injury...