The Great Gun Control Debate

[zipperhead_cop]

Peace, order, and good government seems to trump almost everything.

Unless you are from Oka, Ipperwash, Caledonia or Cornwall.  But that is the stuff of a different thread. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Expect a drive by slagging by CBC on the Type 97 today

 

[Nuggs]

I suspect they could have jurisdictional issues outside the criminal code.  Mind you, when was the last time the courts declared federal overstepping into provincial issues to be ultra vires?  Peace, order, and good government seems to trump almost everything.  The rest of jurisdictional issues are paid for with the federal cheque book.

Many of the provinces already refuse to enforce / prosecute individuals under the legislation anyway.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Many of the provinces already refuse to enforce / prosecute individuals under the legislation anyway.

The federal government can prosecute, as they have.  Also 11 of 13 jurisdictions are policed by federal police, the RCMP.  Currently there is an amnesty in place for long guns, being renewed annually by the Conservative government so prosecutions are not possible.

 

[KnightShift]

Bill C-391 Update

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/2010/06/Release_20100603_Holland_attempts_thwart_debate.html

 

[Edward Campbell]

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is a report that will not surprise many members here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/liberals-aim-to-put-a-bullet-in-bill-to-scrap-gun-registry/article1596013/

Liberals aim to put a bullet in bill to scrap gun registry

Jane Taber

Tuesday, June 8, 2010 9:41 AM

(Update: Liberal public safety critic Mark Holland's motion was delayed and is expected to be made in the House on Wednesday.)

The Ignatieff Liberals are redoubling their efforts to save the long-gun registry, introducing a motion in the House of Commons this morning to keep the registry intact.

Liberal public safety critic Mark Holland devised the motion — that the House should not proceed with the Conservative bill to destroy the registry — as a way to circumvent the Harper Tories' efforts.

After he presents it, his motion will eventually have one hour of debate in the Commons and then it will be voted on; if it passes, the gun registry will live another day.

“I think they (the Conservatives) are losing the information campaign right now,” says Mr. Holland, noting that police have come out strongly in favour of the usefulness of the registry.

However, he said he believes that there is some foot-dragging on the part of the government on this bill:

“I think the real issue here is they are much interested in playing politics with this as long as they can maybe even into a next election,” said Mr. Holland. “They are far more interested in that than actually scrapping the registry.”

Meanwhile, if Mr. Holland’s motion fails, the House will vote on Manitoba Conservative MP Candice Hoeppner’s private member’s bill to abolish the controversial registry.

That bill has been in the committee after it passed second reading last November with the help of eight Liberal MPs and 12 New Democrats.

This has been a highly contentious piece of legislation, especially for the Liberals who brought in the gun registry under Prime Minister Jean Chrétien — and at considerable political cost.

Since the November vote, opposition leaders have been working on their members who supported the government to change their votes on third and final reading.

In fact, Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff says he he will whip the vote, meaning that any of his MPs who do not vote with him will face discipline.

It is usually not the practice for a party leader to whip a vote on a private member’s bill.

It appears the NDP will not whip their members, but they are hoping some acceptable amendments will come out of the committee that could change their members’ votes.

Still, if the 12 NDP MPs support the government, the registry will die.

Now, this could all be rendered moot by the machinations of the Liberals — if the Holland motion passes, then the registry will survive.

In the Commons during Question Period Monday, Ms. Hoeppner accused the opposition of “political game-playing” with her bill.

"The NDP, Liberal and Bloc coalition joined forces and passed a motion that would keep the wasteful and completely ineffective long-gun registry intact,” she said.

“This motion (the Holland motion) proves that when it comes to the long-gun registry, this coalition is more interested in political games than representing their constituents.”

Public Safety Minister Vic Toews replied:

“The choice is now clear, even to the member for Malpeque (Liberal MP Wayne Easter, who voted for the bill on second reading, but appears to have changed his mind and will vote against it), they either vote to keep the long-gun registry or they vote to scrap the long-gun registry.

“No more political games by members … the constituents deserve better.”

The Liberal Party of Toronto strikes again.

 

[KnightShift]

Just saw this today on facebook:

http://www.scraptheregistry.ca/

Has some interesting info, and a handy countdown clock till the next vote!

 

[HavokFour]

Federal gun program head ousted​

The head of the Canadian Firearms Program, who is a strong supporter of the long-gun registry, is quietly being bounced out of the position, CBC News has learned.

RCMP Chief Supt. Marty Cheliak, director general of the program, is being sent off to French language training after nine months on the job on orders from RCMP Commissioner William Elliott, according to police sources.

The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) oversees the administration of the Firearms Act and regulations. In 2006, the responsibility for the CFP was transferred to the RCMP.

Cheliak had reformed the program and lobbied forcefully, including before a parliamentary committee, for a continued long-gun registry, something the Conservative government has been determined to scrap.

Read more...

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

So the guy did a good job and is being sent for language training?  Sounds to me like he's being groomed for a promotion.  They really must dislike him.  When RCMP officers start getting promoted , it happens fast.  I think I've seen a corporal to sergeant to staff sergeant to inspector happen in 3 or 4 years. 

 

[murray b]

Many conservatives are too willing to give lieberals the benefit of the doubt even long after there is no doubt left whatsoever.

Honestly, does anyone who made it out of high school actually believe that a criminal will comply with a gun registration requirement?  Nobody, not even the jerkiest knee-jerk liberal jerk, actually believes this.

So what are these creatures actually about?

Ex-SHAD speaks of what is not explicitly stated in the constitution.

... a Canadian citizen’s right to bear arms(though not explicitly stated in the Canadian Constitution)...

Okay that right is not explicit but our constitution does state the following explicitly: [From http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1982.html]

“(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.”

What is an “apprehended war” and who is doing the apprehending?

Why is there no time limit on the continuance?

Why “not opposed by...more than one-third”, instead of the more democratic “supported by...more than two-thirds”.  As written, if opponents can be prevented from voting the motion should carry.

Invoking this clause while millions of citizens still possess firearms could be risky because some people might object to a PM making himself emperor and cause trouble.

Has anyone considered the possibility that 88% of the population is confused about the real reason for the gun registry because they do not yet understand what the agenda really is?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Many conservatives are too willing to give lieberals the benefit of the doubt even long after there is no doubt left whatsoever.

Honestly, does anyone who made it out of high school actually believe that a criminal will comply with a gun registration requirement?  Nobody, not even the jerkiest knee-jerk liberal jerk, actually believes this.

So what are these creatures actually about?

Ex-SHAD speaks of what is not explicitly stated in the constitution.
Okay that right is not explicit but our constitution does state the following explicitly: [From http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1982.html]

“(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.”

What is an “apprehended war” and who is doing the apprehending?

Why is there no time limit on the continuance?

Why “not opposed by...more than one-third”, instead of the more democratic “supported by...more than two-thirds”.  As written, if opponents can be prevented from voting the motion should carry.

Invoking this clause while millions of citizens still possess firearms could be risky because some people might object to a PM making himself emperor and cause trouble.

Has anyone considered the possibility that 88% of the population is confused about the real reason for the gun registry because they do not yet understand what the agenda really is?

It means to expect with anxiety, suspicion, or fear; anticipate: apprehending war.

Gun owners make up more than 12% of Canadian society and very few of them, with the exceptions of some Fuds, are not aware that registration leads to confiscation.

I know it may be a chore to read, given the length of the thread, but your points have been covered.

 

[murray b]

I know it may be a chore to read, given the length of the thread, but your points have been covered.

I did read the thread but did not find any mention of the "dictatorship clause" in our constitution.  Sorry I missed it and I will be more careful next time.

 

[murray b]

Some fellows around here posted a link to some site called torontothebad.com. 

The site is interesting but I don't think the mayor is lying when he states, "...half of the firearms used in crime are stolen from Canadian owners..."

A few years ago this may not have been true since almost all firearms were obtained through black market channels.  Criminals wanted handguns and most gun owners had long guns so it would take a long time for a criminal to find a handgun by burglarizing at random.

Then we got the long gun registry and it seems the handgun registry was incorporated into the database.

Then as Gary Breitkruez wrote," The registry also provides hackers with a shopping list bearing the names and addresses of gun owners. The RCMP themselves admit that the registry has been breached more than 300 times." See http://www.themarknews.com/articles/1054-dump-the-long-gun-registry for the article.

Actually the registry probably provides more information than that and the criminals can locate any kind of firarm they want and where it is currently located.

As a retired 'computer guy' I have always thought it virtually impossible to create a database that could be accessed remotely by any police officer in the country and yet secured from unauthorized access by criminals.

The Government's failure to secure the database has resulted in crimes committed against those law abiding citizens that are listed in the registry.  [This presumes that criminals are still failing to comply with the registry requirement and are not at risk.].

The handguns used by police forces and the military are registered by their respective organizations.  Of the remainder the vast majority are used by criminals and are never registered.  Is registering 3% or 5% of the total non-police and non-military handguns worth the price of exposing these few law abiding citizens to risk of burglary or worse?

Eventually the criminals will run out of handguns to steal and will have to go back to the black marketeers as they did before.  Sadly, they will have traumatized a great many law-abiding registered handgun owners along the way for no good reason. 

The handgun registry must go too!

 

[KnightShift]

You're aware there's actually a "gun control debate" thread right?

 

[murray b]

You're aware there's actually a "gun control debate" thread right?

That thread is where I obtained the pointer to the mayor's words and I am pointing out that he is probably correct in what he said. 

I am also pointing out that the long gun registry that is covered in that thread is not the only problem.

Besides the best way to hide something is to post it on a 100 page thread.  What happened to these people is real and should not be hidden away to be forgotten.  Do we know what happened to the victims that the guns were stolen from?  Were any killed or injured?  Gang members are not known for their gentleness.

 

[KnightShift]

Besides the best way to hide something is to post it on a 100 page thread. 

Good point.

 

[Loachman]

The site is interesting but I don't think the mayor is lying when he states, "...half of the firearms used in crime are stolen from Canadian owners..."

That is indeed a lie. The percentage that can actually be traced to lawful owners is extremely small.

And I merged the two threads. We do not need too parallel ones.

 

[murray b]

That is indeed a lie. The percentage that can actually be traced to lawful owners is extremely small.

And I merged the two threads. We do not need too parallel ones.

Don't be so quick to judge.  Statistics often lag behind reality because they take time to prepare.  That does not mean that the mayor is lying.  In fact, there is confirmation from other sources.

There was an interesting article about guns in Edmonton’s Sunday Sun.  A copy is posted at http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/2010/04/03/13456756.html

Note the text, “Across Canada, there’s been an increase in cases where guns were stolen from legitimate owners, only to be used later in committing crimes.  In Toronto recently, four out of the six guns swiped from a licensed gun owner were used in committing robberies and even a homicide.”

They forgot to mention if the stolen guns were handguns or long guns.  If they were handguns, which are extremely rare aming law abiding citizens in Canada, then it begs the question of how criminals are locating the guns to steal. 

In any case the government should create a fund to compensate victims of the blunder.

P.S. In the future I will try to be less parallel.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're bending things to fit your argument, and your argument is based on nothing but speculation. There are millions of restricted firearms in Canada. There is absolutely nothing rare about them. We may all believe that a hacked registry may be providing info, but that has not been proven as a fact. I also believe, that if you had read the 100 pages of this thread as you've claimed, you'll find that we don't hold conspiracy theories in too much of a serious light.

BTW, do you even have a RPAL or PAL?


Mod hat on  - As a new poster and a guest, you would do well to consider dropping the snide little endings to some of your posts and watch how you engage other members here. - Hat off.

 

[murray b]

You're bending things to fit your argument, and your argument is based on nothing but speculation.

Actually, if you look carefully, you will see that I give references for every claim.  Mr. Breitkruez revealed that the database has been breached several times, not I.  It was the Sun that posted the article about guns used in crime being stolen from law abiding citizens, not I.  It does not take a genius to see that finding one of the maybe 300,000 handgun owners living in any one of about 10 million domiciles would require access to inside information.  Even if the burglar came upon the handgun owner’s house by chance they would have no way of knowing that it contained handguns.  Nobody displays them over the mantle anymore.

There are millions of restricted firearms in Canada.

I knew that there were about three million people listed in the registry but I thought most of the firearms were long guns.  Can you point me to a source that has some more details about the “millions of restricted firearms”.  Even if this were true most of them are long guns and not handguns.  Criminals do not want semi-automatic varmint rifles, they want certain types of handguns.  Legally registered handguns are rare and the criminals have no easy way to discover their location without access to the registry database. 

BTW, do you even have a RPAL or PAL?

Why do you pry for information that you could not possibly need to know?

BTW, are active service personnel using taxpayer funded equipment to spew anti-Conservative political propaganda?  That would not be nice.

Mod hat on  - As a new poster and a guest, you would do well to consider dropping the snide little endings to some of your posts and watch how you engage other members here. - Hat off.

Keep in mind that I am a civilian and do not always understand military terms like “too parallel”.  Is this one of those Catch-22 situations where I can’t be right no matter what I do?

Moving my thread, which is more about the victims of the registry than gun control, is rather strange but I guess there is no better way to bury it than under a 100 pages of rhetoric.

BTBTW, is anybody watching the watchers?