The Great Gun Control Debate

[BernDawg]

"I am not arguing that police should be treated as harshly as we currently treat civilians vis-a-vis gun handling (although it could be argued that because we grant police a monopoly on the use of force in our society, they should be held to a higher standard). Rather, I would like civilians to be held to the same more-sensible, lenient, common-sense standard we hold police officers such as Jamie Graham."

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/25/lorne-gunter-when-police-mishandle-guns-vs-when-you-do/

 

[ballz]

:goodpost:

"since October 2008, police forces and other law-enforcement agencies have lost at least 428 firearms nationwide. Thirty-two were lost by or stolen from the RCMP. Another 316 went missing from municipal police forces, while 80 have gone missing from other agencies, exclusive of the military."



I guarantee you if I lost my firearm, or it was found loaded in my car, I would get jail-time, with a firearm ban and criminal record.

There was an RNC officer here in St. John's that was in an unmarked police car. Late at night went into a pizza joint to get food after his shift. Left his pistol (with a loaded clip... it doesn't specify whether the clip was loaded into the pistol or not...) in the console, with the doors unlocked, and comes back to discover it's gone.
http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Justice/2009-12-15/article-1454213/Update%3A-Veteran-RNC-officer-suspended-after-gun-stolen/1

You know I don't recall the outcome specifically, but I am pretty sure he just got suspended without pay for a while... any of us wouldn't see the light of day for a long time.

EDIT: God love 'em, they did charge him.

http://www.thetelegram.com/Justice/2010-01-12/article-1455560/Case-set-over-for-RNC-officer-facing-charges-in-connection-with-stolen-gun/1

"Feehan, 47, is facing criminal charges in relation to the incident. The charges include carelessly using a firearm and failure to ensure a firearm is properly stored."

 

[J.J]

Disagree. When members of the CF come under fire for doing something stupid members here don't protect and shield said members. If anything they're fairly harsh in their views of the offending member to the point where the mods have to keep chiming in.

I haven't seen LEOs in the news treated much differently.  If it looks like the LEO is being unfairly accused then the members here more often than not rally around their defense. When it looks like LEOs crap the bed the members treat them the same way they do CF members- you're held to a higher standard so the punishment should likewise be raised up.

Just my observations.

:goodpost:

"since October 2008, police forces and other law-enforcement agencies have lost at least 428 firearms nationwide. Thirty-two were lost by or stolen from the RCMP. Another 316 went missing from municipal police forces, while 80 have gone missing from other agencies, exclusive of the military."



I guarantee you if I lost my firearm, or it was found loaded in my car, I would get jail-time, with a firearm ban and criminal record.

There was an RNC officer here in St. John's that was in an unmarked police car. Late at night went into a pizza joint to get food after his shift. Left his pistol (with a loaded clip... it doesn't specify whether the clip was loaded into the pistol or not...) in the console, with the doors unlocked, and comes back to discover it's gone.
http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Justice/2009-12-15/article-1454213/Update%3A-Veteran-RNC-officer-suspended-after-gun-stolen/1

You know I don't recall the outcome specifically, but I am pretty sure he just got suspended without pay for a while... any of us wouldn't see the light of day for a long time.

EDIT: God love 'em, they did charge him.

http://www.thetelegram.com/Justice/2010-01-12/article-1455560/Case-set-over-for-RNC-officer-facing-charges-in-connection-with-stolen-gun/1

"Feehan, 47, is facing criminal charges in relation to the incident. The charges include carelessly using a firearm and failure to ensure a firearm is properly stored."

Of course there isn't an anti-law enforcement sentiment out here, we must be sensitive and over reacting.....  :

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well WR, surely you would believe an ex-con with a plastic gun over the local offices that are there to help protect you, wouldn't you??

 

[ballz]

Of course there isn't an anti-law enforcement sentiment out here, we must be sensitive and over reacting.....  :

Oh I'm sorry, am I not supposed to be happy that that particular officer got treated the same as I would have been treated? Am I supposed to wish that he got a break that I would never have gotten? Would that be "supportive?"

I have no problem whatsoever admitting I don't trust LEOs when it comes to this stuff (when it comes to their using force to defend themselves / fellow officers / innocent civilians or simply to get the job done, you'll usually see me in their corner). I've owned a restricted rifle for, I think, 2 years, and I've been jumping through hoops of paperwork ever since. Now I am getting posted (prohibited) and the RCMP is trying to tell me the only option I have to is to transfer it over into someone else's name (which is not only retarded to think that's even a "solution," but it's not true, either).

As Loachman said

I do not trust "The Police" one bit, however, thanks to this legislation, the actions of the vast majority of police chiefs and police associations in supporting it, and the actions of many police officers who have wantonly abused many honest citizens who own firearms - and kids with capguns and water pistols.

Any contact with a previously-unknown or not-very-well-known police officer, even in professional and social settings, proceeds from a position of regrettable caution and mistrust.

I wish that that was not so. It should not be.

That's reality, if you don't like it, I don't actually care.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And then there are times cops use common sense, restraint and save the day. 

I was arrested a few years ago for transporting a restricted weapon without a license. Got in to an argument with an ex over our daughter and I decided to remove a new firearm from my house to my parents out of concern that she would show up and cause a domestic fight or she'd send her scumbag friends to steal my shit when I wasn't home. Unbeknownst to me she called the police and told them I was just home from Afghanistan, had PTSD I was a sniper over there and had a bunch of weapons and I was suicidal.

Leaving my house to lock up the firearm over at my parents 4 cop cars surround me. Told me there was a complaint I was going to hurt myself and asked if I had any weapons.  I told them I had a pistol in the trunk.  Ex lived in the same direction of my parents.  There was also a half a bottle of whiskey I forgot in there with  from a bonfire a few nights previous.

Needless to say it looked pretty bad!

I explained to the cops why I had a pistol in my vehicle. It was in a locked case in the back, I had no ammo. I was bringing it to my dads just to remove it from a possible situation.  The whiskey was from a fire and I offered to do a breathalyzer test [which the cops waved off]
Cops treated me like gold.  They were calm, professional  and respectful.  They took me to the hospital to get "checked out" and after the psychologist concurred that  wasn't suicidal that I just made a really stupid decision for a very good reason I was sent home and told to wait out.

Now the cops did screw up a little and remove not only the firearms I had stored at my fathers residence but his as well. I had my firearms taken away [Obviously] and my license taken away.  I did some research online and it wasn't looking too good for me based off similar cases.

Surprise. The police were so appreciative of my polite and professional attitude towards them 'just doing their job' that the arresting officer spoke with the duty sgt and they both put in a good word for me with the firearms officer and  the crown attorney [Not sure if that's the correct name, the guy responsible for charging people?].  The arresting officer put his name on the line for me and said he didn't think I should be charged and believed that I wouldn't have any more firearm related issues in the future.  The crown completely dropped the charges.

But having still transported a restricted firearm without an ATT I still lost my license and firearms for good right?
Nope. Once again the police went to bat and contacted the firearms office and explained that I wasn't being charged, they didn't feel I was a threat and they recommended that I have my license and firearms returned.

My license was returned and I got back all the firearms that were taken including the pistol.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well WR, surely you would believe an ex-con with a plastic gun over the local offices that are there to help protect you, wouldn't you??

Of course there isn't an anti-law enforcement sentiment out here, we must be sensitive and over reacting.....  :

You guys really have to get off this tangent and stick to the realities of the many cases that have been stated here.

You know me and what I do. You know I'm very pro LEO, but there is enough incidents, across this country, of over reaction out there to fill a book.

Perhaps some were justified, but certainlty all of them weren't.

The police captain cited in the article is also far from the first LEO to be involved in unsafe storage, domestic discharge, loss and theft. The vast majority of these LEO incidents are not adjudicated anywhere near the extent that civilian firearms owners get charged and sentenced with.

Your blanket "You guys hate LEO's" is a straw man arguement that is meant to detract from the real issue which you cannot argue.

That issue is that gun owners are treated as second class citizens with less Charter rights than normal Canadians (and criminals), as potential threats to society to be treated with maximum force and demonized by the Crown attorneys and judicial system. Those points are beyond denial.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That issue is that gun owners are treated as second class citizens with less Charter rights than normal Canadians (and criminals),

Have never denied that........

treated with maximum force .

Now you're making me giggle................gee, really hard to believe with lines thrown out like that we roll our eyes at the rest of your arguements.

 

[Loachman]

Of course there isn't an anti-law enforcement sentiment out here

No, there isn't.

There is, however, a sentiment against those few who abuse their powers or make mistakes and fail to take responsility for them.

Law Enforcement personnel, just like military personnel, freely assume an increased level of risk to themselves, and are paid for doing so. While risks should be minimized, doing so ahead of the safety and well being of those whom we are charged to protect is not acceptable. "Officer safety" should never trump "To protect and serve".

A higher standard of conduct is rightfully expected of both military and law enforcement personnel.

Unfortunately, members of both communities make honest mistakes and commit negligent and even criminal acts from time to time and must be held accountable for them. The leadership of both communities must ensure that that happens.

You will not find many people here defending CF members who have committed crimes or been negligent. When such events occur, I, for one, am professionally disappointed and personally embarrassed and the last thing that I will do is defend them.

Are you not similarly professionally disappointed and personally embarrassed when police do likewise? Do you think that such things should not be discussed? Do you automatically think that all law enforcement personnel are right all of the time and all peaceful citizens are wrong?

Neither the particular events being discussed nor attempts to brush them off help the police in general. Both tend to alienate the public, as should be expected. Sir Robert Peel understood this. When the police and public are alienated from each other, both parties suffer.

None of the police or ex-police whom I know would have pulled dumb stunts like these. I have, on occasion, seen attitudes that contribute to these regrettable and preventable events, however. They are real and very unpleasant.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Have never denied that........


Now you're making me giggle................gee, really hard to believe with lines thrown out like that we roll our eyes at the rest of your arguements.

Sorry Bruce, now your trolling. Nothing better to do today?

 

[Loachman]

And then there are times cops use common sense, restraint and save the day.

This is heartening to hear, and would have been pretty much standard in the past. You may or may not have been treated a little better than a civilian because of your military status, however. A regular civilian may or may not have been so lucky.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sorry Bruce, now your trolling. Nothing better to do today?

I don't think the definition of trolling is calling someone out when they toss out an extremely stupid thing to say..................but whatever keeps your indignition turned up even though I agree with most of what you say is fine by me.
Carry on........

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't think the definition of trolling is calling someone out when they toss out an extremely stupid thing to say..................but whatever keeps your indignition turned up even though I agree with most of what you say is fine by me.
Carry on........

So your saying that being taken down by an ERT, arrested, strip searched, charged and detained, when you've commited no crime, isn't maximum force?

I suppose if you want to go to extremes, no, being shot would be maximum force.

So I'll recant and say overly excessive force.

Better?

 

[a_majoor]

You think some posters here are taking a harsh view, try Instapundit 25 Feb 2012

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/

FROM THE TAR-AND-FEATHERS DEPARTMENT: Man Arrested After 4-Year-Old Draws Picture of Gun.
Police arrested a Kitchener, Ont., father outside his daughter’s school because the four-year-old drew a picture of him holding a gun.

Jessie Sansone told the Record newspaper that he was in shock when he was arrested Wednesday and taken to a police station for questioning over the drawing. He was also strip-searched.

“This is completely insane. My daughter drew a gun on a piece of paper at school,” he said.

Officials told the newspaper the move was necessary to ensure there were no guns accessible by children in the family’s home. They also said comments by Sansone’s daughter, Neaveh, that the man holding the gun in the picture was her dad and “he uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters,” was concerning.

Police also searched Sansone’s home while he was in custody. His wife and three children were taken to the police station, and the children were interviewed by Family and Children’s Services.

What these officials did was child abuse itself. They should be punished personally and individually, as an example to others.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Officials" have lost their fricking minds.  Fire them and eliminate their positions.

 

[fraserdw]

No, they have not lost their minds.  They are just affected by the gun control proproganda that has also closed all gun ranges in Toronto, diverted police resources to hunting down legal gun owners in Toronto while illegal guns are rampant in the streets, schools and playgrounds of Urban Ontario.  This is the stuff that Chief Blair and Wendy Cuklier are proud of.  This is their great society; one that Ontario Police Chiefs have worked so hard to create in between free concert tickets from the company providing the registry software.  A society where gun ownership = family violence, Ontario police services, child services and schools staffs are building cases for increased budgets on the backs of the legal gun owner boogy man.

They go to family violence conferences together and paint a public picture of the gun owner sitting in his basement polishing his guns, planning how he is going to beat is wife and kids with a rifle butt.  If you own a gun you are their enemy.

How police are ever going to earn the trust and respect of legal gun owners after this registry is dead is beyond me.  Supporting this contrivance left them alienated from the one aspect of society that has always been pro-police.  What fools police leaders have become.

 

[Nemo888]

(rant) It's not just gun control propaganda. The government thinks we cannot govern ourselves. That liberty is dangerous to their authority. Look at the assaults from all sides to our liberties. These disparate groups should band together. Then the government will fear a cross party call for liberty and security from an overzealous state.

1. Criminalizing legal gun owners and removing their constitutional rights.
2. Making marijuana use a crime. 50% of my neighbors smoke pot. They also make the most money and pay the most taxes. They look after their kids and go to PTA meetings. Why the f*** are they "criminals"? over 66% of Canadians have tried pot. Stop selectively enforcing pot laws and either lock everybody up or legalize it.
3. Bill C-30 and the defacto criminalizing of all internet users. The storage of all persona data of law abiding citizens in what will be a very leaky manner.

There are probably more assaults happening quietly to small groups. I am fed up. Destroy the gun registry, legalize pot and stop snooping on people without a warrant. We do not need to be humbled by the power of a police state. I joined the Army thinking of protecting the principles of liberty, meritocracy and the values of an egalitarian open society. Give me my country back.

Of course people are going to hate LEO's if they have to enforce bull$H!T laws. Maybe some LEO's should simply refuse to enforce them. Have some balls and not be a drone perhaps. Some things are more important than your next promotion.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Teachers watching out for unsafe conditions like a child having access to firearms (which happens) is a good thing.
It was in the news just a little while ago down int he states. A young kid (7,8?)  brought a pistol to class and it went off killing another student. Unsecure firearms do happen.

It's just that in this case it seems (to some, not all) that the school over reacted followed by the police getting what looks like bad info and in turn reacting.  Reading back through the articles it looks like the police were told that a firearm WAS in the residence and it wasn't secured. But even then, it still seems like their reaction was a little over the top.

Did the teacher have the presence of mind to ask the kid "do you play with guns at home?" or "does your daddy have guns at home?"

It looks like everyone reacted to a picture of a dad holding "a" gun from a parent in good standing with the school.  I still think the police shit the bed by luring a "possibly armed man with a previous arrest" INTO a school to arrest him.  If I was a parent at that school I would be causing a hell storm with the school administration and the police.

 

[fraserdw]

Chief of Police leaves his loaded gun on front of car while attending a news conference on Missing Riot Gear:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/25/lorne-gunter-when-police-mishandle-guns-vs-when-you-do/

He was not strip searched, he was not fined, jailed or given a ban on guns.  Seems the law is different for some gun users than most of us.

 

[J.J]

Chief of Police leaves his loaded gun on front of car while attending a news conference on Missing Riot Gear:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/25/lorne-gunter-when-police-mishandle-guns-vs-when-you-do/

He was not strip searched, he was not fined, jailed or given a ban on guns.  Seems the law is different for some gun users than most of us.

With your "reasoning", every member of the CF who has left their C7,pistol, C6 etc unattended on exercise, the shacks, in their vehicle has been charged criminally, strip searched blah blah blah?
When I was in the most I saw was an NDA charge, but more likely extra's or the soldier/sailor/airman was spoken to.