The Great Gun Control Debate

[my72jeep]

With your "reasoning", every member of the CF who has left their C7,pistol, C6 etc unattended on exercise, the shacks, in their vehicle has been charged criminally, strip searched blah blah blah?
[/quote
Don't know about you, but I never left a LOADED let alone unloaded FN, pistol, gpmg,Carl G, etc. any where. And like the guy said if it was a civi that did that he would be in jail no if's butt's or maybe's.

 

[fraserdw]

First of all, I was not trolling I was adding aspect to the debate, if you had left a loaded C7 on seat of an LS in downtown van city, you can bet you would be charged criminally.  I am extremely disappointed that you would knock half my points total rather than debate my post rationally.  And again as noted few if any of the incidents you noted do not involve loaded weapons. 

 

[larry Strong]

With your "reasoning", every member of the CF who has left their C7,pistol, C6 etc unattended on exercise, the shacks, in their vehicle has been charged criminally, strip searched blah blah blah?
When I was in the most I saw was an NDA charge, but more likely extra's or the soldier/sailor/airman was spoken to.

There is a big difference between a relatively sceure area on base, and in the middle of the street in a city/town. Sheesh.......

 

[Fishbone Jones]

With your "reasoning", every member of the CF who has left their C7,pistol, C6 etc unattended on exercise, the shacks, in their vehicle has been charged criminally, strip searched blah blah blah?
When I was in the most I saw was an NDA charge, but more likely extra's or the soldier/sailor/airman was spoken to.

So I guess the flip side is, why are gunowners treated differently (criminaly) when they do it? Why not the same slap on the wrist as the police and soldiers guilty of the exact same thing?

 

[J.J]

There is a big difference between a relatively sceure area on base, and in the middle of the street in a city/town. Sheesh.......

I am not debating that leaving a firearm unattended is wrong, but believing all bases are secure is a fantasy. According to the law a firearm left unattended is wrong, unless you are in the CF and you are on a exercise? Is that correct?
According to the article the firearm was secured in a vehicle in a police garage, but in your opinion this is wrong for the police, but not for the CF?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/11/29/nb-cfb-gagetown-missing-rifle-619.html?cmp=rss

First of all, I was not trolling I was adding aspect to the debate, if you had left a loaded C7 on seat of an LS in downtown van city, you can bet you would be charged criminally.  I am extremely disappointed that you would knock half my points total rather than debate my post rationally.  And again as noted few if any of the incidents you noted do not involve loaded weapons.

Is there a difference if the firearm is loaded or not?

So I guess the flip side is, why are gunowners treated differently (criminaly) when they do it? Why not the same slap on the wrist as the police and soldiers guilty of the exact same thing?

Currently the law states that the CF and LEO's (and a few special people) can carry firearms in the course of their duties, they are considered "tools" and as you know when you carry one every day you become to comfortable with them and you can make mistakes.

I have explained this before to others, even though I am a LEO in a firearms enforcement unit, our mandate is criminal firearms. The OIC of the unit has stated we will not bother, annoy or do enforcement against legal responsible firearm owners. I own firearms, shoot socially and hunt. I do not agree with the gun registry, but I do believe in firearms legislation.
There is a reason why LEO's come to this site, then leave soon after. There is a subtle, but strong anti-law enforcement sentiment out here. People expect they be held to the same standard in some things, but held to a different standard in others. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Currently the law states that the CF and LEO's (and a few special people) can carry firearms in the course of their duties, they are considered "tools" and as you know when you carry one every day you become to comfortable with them and you can make mistakes.

Which is perfectly understandable, but doesn't answer my questions. Why the different treatment when a 'mistake' occurs?

 

[fraserdw]

"considered "tools" and as you know when you carry one every day you become to comfortable with them and you can make mistakes."

Disagree, I have never seen anyone charged with an ND for revving a chain saw at the wrong time, nor an SI for losing that chainsaw.  Firearms are not considered "tools" other than that police and military use them more openly.  They remain firearms and to say wearing a uniform allows for special treatment with you mis-use your firearm tool is very dis-concerning.

The day I think I should be treated differently under Canadian criminial law because I wear a uniform is the day it that uniform should be stripped from me.

 

[ballz]

Is there a difference if the firearm is loaded or not?

I would be willing to bet that if someone were convicted of "careless use or storage of a firearm" a judge would consider the fact that it was loaded to be an aggravating factor during the sentencing. I obviously can't grab a signature case to prove it, but use some common sense.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Cf members who forget their weapon somewhere and have the weapon found by someone else in the CF sometimes get a slap upside the head. Sometimes they get extra duties and sometimes they get charged.

If a CF member lost one of their prohibited assault rifles in the general public (and it wasn't promptly returned) they would most likely be charged through the military.  I'm not sure if the could be charged civilian side but either way you can guarantee they would get more than a slap on the wrist- which is how it should be.

When police officers get a slap on the wrist (or away with) an action that a citizen would be raked over the coals for you can't expect anyone in their right mind to find it acceptable.  A citizen loosing a loaded pistol would get jail time full stop.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Oh crap no one say anything else. Kalatzi is viewing the thread.... 

 

[J.J]

"considered "tools" and as you know when you carry one every day you become to comfortable with them and you can make mistakes."

Disagree, I have never seen anyone charged with an ND for revving a chain saw at the wrong time, nor an SI for losing that chainsaw.  Firearms are not considered "tools" other than that police and military use them more openly.  They remain firearms and to say wearing a uniform allows for special treatment with you mis-use your firearm tool is very dis-concerning.

When you lose that firearm does the public scream for you to be fired? Is your picture, name and personal details in the media?
I disagree, firearms are considered tools, they are stated as such in the Use of Force Continuum. In the law enforcement world your defensive tools are not considered weapons.
There are different rules for the CF and LEO's with firearms etc, whether you agree or not that is how it is.

I would be willing to bet that if someone were convicted of "careless use or storage of a firearm" a judge would consider the fact that it was loaded to be an aggravating factor during the sentencing. I obviously can't grab a signature case to prove it, but use some common sense.

shhh adults are talking

 

[ballz]

shhh adults are talking

And you were calling fraserdw a troll? :facepalm:

 

[fraserdw]

When you lose that firearm does the public scream for you to be fired? Is your picture, name and personal details in the media?
I disagree, firearms are considered tools, they are stated as such in the Use of Force Continuum. In the law enforcement world your defensive tools are not considered weapons.
There are different rules for the CF and LEO's with firearms etc, whether you agree or not that is how it is.

Well, for me, as a person who is expected to carry a firearm on the job at the discretion of the crown, I would feel dis-honoured to hide behind such a contrivance of words which are obivously intended to elevate me above the law my fellow Canadians are being forced to give up their chapter rights for.  Use of Force Continuum is not a law it is a cope out.

 

[The_Falcon]

When you lose that firearm does the public scream for you to be fired? Is your picture, name and personal details in the media?
I disagree, firearms are considered tools, they are stated as such in the Use of Force Continuum. In the law enforcement world your defensive tools are not considered weapons.
There are different rules for the CF and LEO's with firearms etc, whether you agree or not that is how it is.

The bolded part.  Thats your opinion, and your entitled to it.  However your opinion and/or variation of a UofF Continuum does not trump the Firearms Act or the Criminal Code.  You stated even out in a open field on base/on base proper one have a false sense of security.  The same is true of any large government building even a Police HQ, what with all the civilian employees, contractors, delivery drivers/couriers, plain old visitors, and heck in this instance media going through the place.  And more specifically with this instance, you seem to neglect the part where the Chief was doing a media scrum regarding MISSING RIOT EQUIPMENT INCLUDING WEAPONS.  The inference being that this stuff was either stolen or misplaced, meaning that there are some opportunistic thieves within the organization, or people who were being careless with their handling and tracking of this equipment.  So if this stuff could have gone "missing" from police custody (and the whereabouts are currently unknown), whats to say the Chief's firearm couldn't have gone missing either?

I don't treat and never have treated any weapon that has been place in my care and custody (I have at various times been employed as the unit RQ 2ic, and as a storeman for a Support Weapons course and a BMQ course, so basically responsible for more than just a pistol being carried on my person), as a tool.  Treating them as a tool and not as the highly controlled and regulated weapons that they are, leads to complacency, and that leads to things going "missing".

 

[Jarnhamar]

So here's a question. If I'm on a road move down to Trenton and for some reason I bring my pistol with me into the bathroom at a rest stop and forget it there and it's lost can I be charged by the civilian police too?

 

[fraserdw]

Yes, if the pistol is turned in to the locals before the MPs get their mitts into you.  After that it depends on the relationship between local mounties and Base Comd.  Chances are the pistol is long gone and the first hint is whenyou report yourself and thus the MPs are lead.

 

[my72jeep]

So here's a question. If I'm on a road move down to Trenton and for some reason I bring my pistol with me into the bathroom at a rest stop and forget it there and it's lost can I be charged by the civilian police too?

Yes when said pistol is usen to rob and or kill the rest stop attendant.

 

[J.J]

The bolded part.  Thats your opinion, and your entitled to it.  However your opinion and/or variation of a UofF Continuum does not trump the Firearms Act or the Criminal Code.  You stated even out in a open field on base/on base proper one have a false sense of security.  The same is true of any large government building even a Police HQ, what with all the civilian employees, contractors, delivery drivers/couriers, plain old visitors, and heck in this instance media going through the place.  And more specifically with this instance, you seem to neglect the part where the Chief was doing a media scrum regarding MISSING RIOT EQUIPMENT INCLUDING WEAPONS.  The inference being that this stuff was either stolen or misplaced, meaning that there are some opportunistic thieves within the organization, or people who were being careless with their handling and tracking of this equipment.  So if this stuff could have gone "missing" from police custody (and the whereabouts are currently unknown), whats to say the Chief's firearm couldn't have gone missing either?

I don't treat and never have treated any weapon that has been place in my care and custody (I have at various times been employed as the unit RQ 2ic, and as a storeman for a Support Weapons course and a BMQ course, so basically responsible for more than just a pistol being carried on my person), as a tool.  Treating them as a tool and not as the highly controlled and regulated weapons that they are, leads to complacency, and that leads to things going "missing".

You don't understand the term tool;

Tool   
noun
1.an implement, especially one held in the hand, as a hammer, saw, or file, for performing or facilitating mechanical operations.
2.any instrument of manual operation.
3.the cutting or machining part of a lathe, planer, drill, or similar machine.
4.the machine itself; a machine tool.
5.anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose: Education is a tool for success.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tool

The Use of Force continuum give operational guidance for CCC 25

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/gazette/vol70n4/force-eng.htm

An explanation of the Incident Management/Intervention  Model
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm#lethal

CCC 25

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-7.html#h-6

In your army world a tool is a chainsaw etc, in the law enforcement world it can also be a firearm, baton, OC etc. Just because it is not a term you are used to does not confer that there is a cavalier or unsafe attitude towards firearms. An explanation given to me awhile back was that bad guys use weapons and the good guys use tools.

 

[The_Falcon]

So here's a question. If I'm on a road move down to Trenton and for some reason I bring my pistol with me into the bathroom at a rest stop and forget it there and it's lost can I be charged by the civilian police too?

It would be Civy or Military that lay the charge not both, since it would be the same charge for the same offence no matter who laid it.  Because in this hypothetical you would be considered on duty, the MP's could ask to have jurisdiction, or the locals could see that your military and ask the local MPs you deal with him.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-19.html#h-40
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-22.html#h-46
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-22.html#h-42
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-37.html#h-73
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-46.html#h-84

 

[ballz]

Why are we off on this sidetrack about whether a firearm is a tool or a weapon? It is irrelevant.

By WR's own definition, a shotgun or a rifle is a tool for a farmer/hunter. If he leaves it in his truck, loaded, he's going to jail, losing his firearm, and likely being banned from firearms for a while. Police, such as the one in the article, do not get treated the same for the exact same mistake.

The question is,  WHY NOT? Until the troll answers that question, why are we entertaining him?