The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[Fusaki]

There is also the problem of each of us knowing or believing that something is wrong - and then deciding, or not, to tolerate it anyway. Who says we know the 'truth.' And who says that we should tolerate something that is really offensive? For many of us being tolerant is just easier that taking action against that which offends our sense of right and wrong.

Well, you gotta pick your battles, right?

Through democracy we give a little on some issues so that we can take what we need on issues we think are more important. You'll never find a politician that holds the exact same beliefs as yourself, so you vote for the guy you think is closest to what you want.  The rest you'll just have to tolerate until we find a better system or you run in an election yourself.

So you ask "who says?" I guess we do together, because in a democracy it just sort of sorts itself out into a compromise.

 

[petergoodman]

- It means that we have to hire and promote people SOLELY based on their sexual orientation, not their ability and productivity, and nothing less will ever do.

Using your logic, one would have to assume that ONLY heterosexuals have 'ability and productivity'? I could easily show you endless examples to the contrary in politics, business, sports and military. Tolerance in action!!

 

[petergoodman]

I was always taught that pride was a sin.

I was always taught that not all sins are created equal.  Can't soldiers be proud to serve in the military? Can't we be proud Canadians?

 

[TCBF]

Using your logic, one would have to assume that ONLY heterosexuals have 'ability and productivity'? I could easily show you endless examples to the contrary in politics, business, sports and military. Tolerance in action!!

- My logic?  You read poorly, and express yourself offensively.  Try again.

 

[Osotogari]

An important issue here is when the uniform can be worn in public.  To me this issue goes beyond homosexual rights and the conflict that arises from tolerating the agenda of gay rights activists. 

It's with some dismay that I hear of CF members wearing their uniforms to a pride parade, but not out of my moral objections to the homosexual lifestyle, but rather with the same dismay I would read of someone wearing their uniform to any political rally, public protest, or other political event.  Can I wear my uniform to a pro-life demonstration?  How about to a rally against gun control?  A pro-Isreal demonstration?  I wouldn't have thought so, I was under the impression that you weren't supposed to wear a uniform in public unless you were on your way to or from work. 

The CF needs to appear to be above politics  I'm a bit peeved at the chain of command of the individuals involved allowing them to wear their uniforms to such an event in the first place, if such approval was granted, because out of either shortsightedness or fear, they've allowed the uniform and what it represents to be dragged into the political fray.  Now that it has, what's to stop someone from wearing their uniform to any event that they feel strongly about? 

 

[Fusaki]

We wear our uniforms to hockey games, at exhibitions, and all sorts of other public events in order to cast the CF in a good light. Why not pride parades?

It's with some dismay that I hear of CF members wearing their uniforms to a pride parade, but not out of my moral objections to the homosexual lifestyle, but rather with the same dismay I would read of someone wearing their uniform to any political rally, public protest, or other political event.

Gay pride isn't a political party, but thats not to say that homosexual issues arn't political. Just that the act of being gay and proud of it isn't political.

I just don't see what the big deal is. You can be gay in a CF parade, so why not CF in  gay parade? "Strong and Proud?" We're practically stealing each other's slogans anyways... We wouldn't even need to re-paint the recruiting bus...

 

[Steel Badger]

- It means that we have to hire and promote people SOLELY based on their sexual orientation, not their ability and productivity, and nothing less will ever do.

TCBF is referring to the hiring and promotion of people according to minority status ( orientation )rather than the individuals OWN merits for the job..... not making a blanket statement about the inability of people of certain sexual orientations to do said jobs...

The truth of the matter, is, as always, in the implementation; and so far the implementation of "inclusiveness" in the workplace HAS focussed on the orientation of the indiviual rather than any intrinsic merit they show as a person....
PG, you have listed examples that you have; and I can do the same ( as can many others here) in regards to the APPLICATION of tolerance overlooking anything as petty as actual qualifications to do the job.

Mayhap thou should take thine axe from the grind stone and read TCBF's post again.

(Edited for spelling)

 

[Osotogari]

the act of being gay and proud of it isn't political.

I agree, but in its nature a pride parade is a political event or there would be no speeches, no politician would attend, nor would there be any media coverage. 

It's not appropriate to wear the uniform to any political event.  If we can't comment on public policy while identifying ourselves as CF members, such as letters to the editor, then it means we can't participate in any political expression while in uniform. 

Again, if someone wants to march in or watch a gay pride parade for whatever the reason that's up to them, but their uniform should be left at home. 

 

[Greymatters]

The truth of the matter, is, as always, in the implementation; and so far the implementation of "inclusiveness" in the workplace HAS focussed on the orientation of the indiviual rather than any intrinsic merit they show as a person.... 

Are you refering to the acceptance of persons who dont meet minimum standards in order to meet political direction from excutive levels?

 

[Steel Badger]

GM: Yes,  have to work on my bluntness i guess.

 

[Greymatters]

No need to sugar-coat things - might as well call a thingee a thingee...

 

[Steel Badger]

Sigh, sometimes the PC approach we are made to swallow by the OPS is hard to get rid of.......

 

[davidsonr_91]

I know that this is probably a touchy subject for most people but I would like to get the general feel for how gays are treated in the combat arms.  Has anyone got any stories of recruits that you have seen or personal stories about being gay in combat arms?  If someone comes out to their reg or section are they treated different?  Do you feel they are less of a person or less capable of doing the job?  What are people's issue with having gays in the military?  I know there is a no harassment policy in the CF but people including your CoC can find ways around that that are indirect to make your life miserable enough to want to release, is this a normal thing or am I just getting over anxious.

I am just wondering as I am going Combat arms and have a partner and would like to know what it's like before I go for training. 

Thanks for your time and responses.

:camo:

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Just saying.....

If you don't have anything to add for the above question, please do not post...


MILNET.CA MENTOR

 

[Snaketnk]

You'll probably be silently discriminated against by your peers. I know it's against CF policy and all that, but at least with the combat arms guys I know (and I like to think I know a huge number) they are NOT comfortable with a person of your orientation. Again, from my experience.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, but expect a bit of a harder time and alienation from your peers. In fact, I hope you do join and start changing attitudes.

 

[vonGarvin]

I know that this is probably a touchy subject for most people but I would like to get the general feel for how gays are treated in the combat arms.  Has anyone got any stories of recruits that you have seen or personal stories about being gay in combat arms?  If someone comes out to their reg or section are they treated different?  Do you feel they are less of a person or less capable of doing the job?  What are people's issue with having gays in the military?  I know there is a no harassment policy in the CF but people including your CoC can find ways around that that are indirect to make your life miserable enough to want to release, is this a normal thing or am I just getting over anxious.

I am just wondering as I am going Combat arms and have a partner and would like to know what it's like before I go for training. 

Thanks for your time and responses.

:camo:

Hi Davidson
I'll only answer questions that are related to "the system".  For any perception issues, I can only speak about one person's experiences: mine.

Has anyone got any stories of recruits that you have seen or personal stories about being gay in combat arms?
Yes.  I have seen gay soldiers in training and on operations.  They are a mixed bag of superb to average to sub-standard soldiers, like everybody else.

If someone comes out to their reg or section are they treated different?
Not really, no.  I mean, in most cases, the fact that person A or person B is gay is usually apparent.  In the cases in which an "outing" is a bit of a surprise, then, yeah, they are treated a bit differently.  Not worse, not better, just different.  And that's natural for humans.  When someone learns something, anything about someone, then the initial reactions are to be expected.  In the end, however, things very quickly revert to the status quo.

Do you feel they are less of a person or less capable of doing the job?

I may sound like a poster-child for tolerance or acceptance, but a person's sexual orientation is not an issue, unless that person makes it an issue.  They are no less or more capable of doing a job be they gay, straight or otherwise. 

I know there is a no harassment policy in the CF but people including your CoC can find ways around that that are indirect to make your life miserable enough to want to release, is this a normal thing or am I just getting over anxious.

From my experience, you are getting over-anxious.  I am sure that there are horror stories out there about person A or person B feeling as though they are getting a raw deal because of their orientation, race, gender, or whatever other card they wish to play.  In my own experience, however, in cases in which people were given hard times (career-wise), it was because of faults in their performance, character or otherwise.  In short, it was about their job, and their inability to perform it to an acceptable standard.

I hope this helps

Techno.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, even though I am a lesbian (shhhhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone), I've never been treated differently and I am openly lesbian...so...

 

[Scott]

Well, even though I am a lesbian (shhhhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone), I've never been treated differently and I am openly lesbian...so...

This is exactly the bullshit type comment that everyone was asked to refrain from making. Glad you read the second post in the thread.

Consider this your freebie.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What, is this "No Sense of Humour" on Army.ca day?

 

[TimBit]

Personnally, I have seen and or known a significant number of lesbians in the forces. Interestingly, I have not seen or known as many gay males, and I certainly have never seen any public display of affection b/w two males. That in itself might tell you something. That is my personal experience. That being said, good luck. I'm sure things will be fine.