The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[2010newbie]

I'm like Wonderbred.  Gay was a big part of my vocabulary and I try and tone it down.

Ditto for me. I was living in an apartment building years ago and there was a lesbian couple that I became good friends with. I used the word "gay" a lot to describe things I disliked. Like, "That's a pretty gay shirt" or "That song was gay". Everytime I said it around them their response was -  "Do you mean "gay" as in homosexual or as in stupid?". I would hang my head and utter "Stupid......". It didn't take long for me to stop using it in that fashion.

 

[CollinsRN]

Interesting discussion.

One point that's been hinted at a lot here is that attitudes and standards change. As one of the old breed dinosaurs, I remember a time when acceptance and tolerance for LGBT members were far from the norm and both official discrimination and barrack room vigilantism were. That was wrong, and we moved forward as we should have and quite fast in the past 2 decades especially for such a conservative and as noted xenophobic organization. Some of us, especially older members haven't moved as past. I don't excuse your CSM, ( or at least your perceptions of his actions), however maybe I can understand why.

Several have also touched on Troopie humour a lot here too. Yeah sometimes "gay" jokes could be seen as offensive as would any specific ethnic type as the Viking and other have put it, but they happen. Question Collin 1st Bn still sit around and tell Newfy jokes , or "Baymen/Townie" jokes in the mess? What happens if some poor sod from the RNBR or WNSR is caught telling one? Troopie humour is often ( almost always) black and inappropriate, however it’s a tool that we sometimes use to get us through the bad patches.

I want to pitch in and say it is not the older folks that have been bad. While I don't associate much with the commissioned ranks, I've never heard a peep from them on the subject, and Master Corporals and above have never really caused much of a problem, even when associating with them on staff. It is the 18-24 year old private/corporals that have historically been the worst.

Hearing a Newfy joke now and then wouldn't bother me. Even hearing a gay joke now and then wouldn't even get under my skin. In fact, my favourite show in the world is South Park, which I've never been offended by, so that should tell you about my tolerance of these things in general.

It is the constant barrage of literally hearing 'That's gay', 'stop being a fag', with no humourous connotation even attached that bothers me. There's no humour in it, it's an insult, plain and simple. They are not saying it with any semblance of humour whatsoever, and more than a couple of them say it with the frequency of a crusty old sergeant major saying 'frig'. And no, I am not exagerating in the least.

I can take playful jabs and insults. This is nothing of the sort.

 

[GAP]

Are you going to correct all the 14 & 15 year olds who think it's grown up and cool to constantly spit and use the f word as often as possible....because that's the context the young fellows you are talking about are doing....the words gay, fag, etc. are not being used in context, mean no disrepute to any particular person, it's part of their lexicon.....teaching them the difference is why you don't see (not entirely) MCpl's, etc. use them.

 

[CollinsRN]

Are you going to correct all the 14 & 15 year olds who think it's grown up and cool to constantly spit and use the f word as often as possible....because that's the context the young fellows you are talking about are doing....the words gay, fag, etc. are not being used in context, mean no disrepute to any particular person, it's part of their lexicon.....teaching them the difference is why you don't see (not entirely) MCpl's, etc. use them.

Yes, it's my intention that in the years to come, we'll eliminate these words from the regular lexicon of all people, or at least reduce it to the point where it's of questionable character to use it. Remember, there was once a time when the same could be said about the 'n' word, but through education and social momentum, racism has been reduced, even down to the level of 14 and 15 year olds.

Is there any reason I shouldn't expect that the same can happen for discrimination against homosexuals? Like I said, I acknowledge things won't change instantly, and appreciate that it's leaps and bounds ahead of where we were. In the meantime, it's still too much for me on a personal level. It's a hostile work environment, and unfortunately if it takes a release from the CF to get away from it, then I have to make that choice. It's for my own psychological well being, a personal choice, and not a matter of me being a whiney kid throwing a tantrum or anything. If that was the case, I'd be threatening all these soldiers to bring them up on charges.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Your taking that back and forth out of context. This thread has been merged with old ones. Back when I made my comment it was because caution had been given to all to keep it clean and serious and then that first post came

sorry bro, you're right

 

[vonGarvin]

if it takes a release from the CF to get away from it, then I have to make that choice.

You better find an island somewhere then, because it's not just the CF.  And remember, use of certain words (eg: speaking) should not be confused with xenophobia directed at homosexuals.


(PS: I use "xenophobia", which means "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign".  It comes from the greek works "xenos" for foreign or strange and "phobia" for fear.  I take it that "phobia" is usually an irrational fear.  Anyway, I do not use that product word of the so-called "gay rights" movement, "homophobia", which literally means "fear and hatread of things that are the same", where "homo" means "same" and phobia has already been explained.)

So, my only advice is to suck it up.  As a practicing Roman Catholic I too have to deal with shit all the time, from the "all priests are pedos" jokes to inferences that I practice some sort of lost art of voodoo.  Hey, it's all good.  In the end, let people judge you for your actions, and if they cannot accept the differences you have from them, no matter what those differences are, well, screw them.  Again, in our far from perfect human society, one can always hope for progress, but unfortunately, it's not always that easy. 

I wish you all the best!

 

[Jarnhamar]

, and unfortunately if it takes a release from the CF to get away from it, then I have to make that choice. It's for my own psychological well being,

I suggest you never go on youtube then...

 

[CollinsRN]

I'm hardly forced to associate with any of these people, except at work. In fact, I rarely hear anyone in my extended friend circle on civilian side talk like this, nor is it nearly as bad in general on the civilian side from my personal experience, probably owing to the fact that I typically associate with people more my own age (22). It is damn rare for me to run into people who will casually be tossing around 'gay' and 'fag'. Truth be told, it's not even a common thing at my home unit, but Gagetown is miserable for it.

Youtube comments, however, are psychologically damaging for their sheer stupidity alone D:

 

[Kat Stevens]

Try spending 23 years being called a shit eater at least once every day.

 

[FastEddy]

Interesting post Collins.

1. The soldier pasting nazi symbols on the target should have been stopped and disciplined by the MCpl, before you brought it to light.  You should not have been removed from trg.

2. Out west here, even our openly homosexual male soldiers use the words "gay" and "fag". We all do. No one is offended.

Yes indeed, very interesting, Had that Soldier drawn a Caricature of Bin Ladin, would that have offended anyone or Jihad Jihad offended any Muslin's who might have been there. As for the Nazi Symbols I don't think that Soldier was  directing their use towards personal of the Jewish Faith.
More than likely to improve the aim of shooters at a Hated Past Enemy.

If the NCO i/c the Butts were to act on anything, it would have been, DO NOT MARK ANYTHING ON THE TARGETS.

Taken into account that "CollinsRN" is bias in that incident, he should not have raised or started a confrontation. If he hadn't learned then or by now, WO's/MWO's are always right !.

Out West, I could really run with this one, but I better not.

Cheers

 

[FastEddy]

Quote from: CollinsRN on Yesterday at 16:53:11
if it takes a release from the CF to get away from it, then I have to make that choice.


If that would be your decision, then I suggest you might consider moving to SanFrancisco.

There you might find your Life Style less subject to criticism or the subject of concern.

Cheers.

 

[CollinsRN]

Yes indeed, very interesting, Had that Soldier drawn a Caricature of Bin Ladin, would that have offended anyone or Jihad Jihad offended any Muslin's who might have been there. As for the Nazi Symbols I don't think that Soldier was  directing their use towards personal of the Jewish Faith.
More than likely to improve the aim of shooters at a Hated Past Enemy.

If the NCO i/c the Butts were to act on anything, it would have been, DO NOT MARK ANYTHING ON THE TARGETS.

Taken into account that "CollinsRN" is bias in that incident, he should not have raised or started a confrontation. If he hadn't learned then or by now, WO's/MWO's are always right !.

That's a pretty false analogy, really, and it's not like it's the first time he had done something stupid like that or it was only on the targets and not over the back walls of the butts as well. Additionally, I told him quite calmly to cut it out a few times, and to yes, stop marking up the damn targets. It was after many repeated attempts to address the issue calmly that it god raised to the point where he was saying 'gays should be shot'.

Would you be saying the same thing if it was a Jewish person who said they just didn't appreciate seeing Nazi symbology?

Out West, I could really run with this one, but I better not.

If that would be your decision, then I suggest you might consider moving to SanFrancisco.

There you might find your Life Style less subject to criticism or the subject of concern.

Cheers.

Really? Way to subtly say 'I'd say something discriminatory but I better not'. Also, I expect the 'If you don't like it then just giiiiit out' attitude from Americans in the south, but not Canadians. My 'life style' shouldn't be subject to discrimination and criticism at the workplace, especially in a military where the members swore a damn oath to protect the rights of all Canadians, including LBGT persons. I am not in the wrong here and should not have to go anywhere. I don't 'make it' anyone else's business. In fact, I specifically don't talk about my relationship history and tend to hide it for the most part, and that reflects a problem in my eyes.

You know what I'll be doing if and when I get out? I already volunteer at an LBGT center and am beginning to volunteer at Planned Parenthood in the fall, and I'll be putting my ass to use trying to better the conditions of gays and lesbians in this country, specifically at a high school level. Hopefully a change in sentiments at a younger age will filter through and improve the environment for future service members too. I appreciate what the military fights for, but I just think I can do more use for Canada and its citizens fighting a different battle. That is all. I'm not turning tail and running altogether, I'm fighting a different battle in a different way. But I expect activism might not be looked fondly on by many on this forums.

 

[aesop081]

and that reflects a problem in my eyes.

So dont hide it. I flew with a navigator who was openly gay. The guy didnt encounter any problems and even brought his partner to squadron family day. Gay jokes went around, he made jokes about straight people...we all got a good laugh, himself included.

You just want to play victim......

 

[GAP]

You just want to play victim......

It's sure beginning to sound that way....

 

[CollinsRN]

So dont hide it. I flew with a navigator who was openly gay. The guy didnt encounter any problems and even brought his partner to squadron family day. Gay jokes went around, he made jokes about straight people...we all got a good laugh, himself included.

You just want to play victim......

Did I say I had a problem with jokes?... Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at gays hundreds of times a day.

If that is the opinion though, I'll shut up about it, and just quietly deal with it in my own way.

 

[aesop081]

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at gays hundreds of times a day.

"yeah that flight/mission/course was pretty gay".........is not an insult towards gay people.

Like i said. You didnt want to use established policies to deal with a serious incident, You just want to be a victim.

 

[George Wallace]

Did I say I had a problem with jokes?... Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at gays hundreds of times a day.

If that is the opinion though, I'll shut up about it, and just quietly deal with it in my own way.

Can I paraphrase you.........I will anyway.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Newfs hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Blacks hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Priests hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Ukrainians hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at blondes hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Wops hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at farmers hundreds of times a day.

Again, jokes are a far cry different than hearing insults tossed around at Cops hundreds of times a day.

We can go on forever, and the point will still be the same.  There are many things that people intentionally or unintnentially say or do that will offend someone.  If it is intentional and/or malicious, there are means to report it. 

 

[aesop081]

George, i'm offended that you did not mention us frogs........and spicks too.

 

[vonGarvin]

George, i'm offended that you did not mention us frogs........and spicks too.

You think you have it bad?  Try being Irish!  ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

Like i said. You didnt want to use established policies to deal with a serious incident, You just want to be a victim.

Let's not omit the point that those immediate supervisors who should have counseled on those policies failed to do so, and took actions that may be interpreted as attempts to neutralize his complaint.  They failed to provide the support and guidance they should have to resolve the issue.  He did take the necessary first actions; i.e., request that the actions be stopped and identify them to his superiors.

Given that we were on a live fire range, I was quite shaken, and a MCpl removed me from training for a portion of that day.

Note that he was removed, not the soldier committing the actions which caused offense.

When the issue was raised to the Sergeant Major, and passed up the chain of command, the soldier was asked to make an apology. While I felt such punishment was completely unfitting for such a comment when I'm told there's a 'zero tolerance' policy, I got the impression that the Sergeant Major wanted me to drop it.

If an initial attempt at "alternate dispute resolution" is not found to be acceptable, it is up to the chain of command to ensure further appropriate actions are taken.  From the information we have, that does not appear to have been done, and "growing a thicker skin" is not the solution.