The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[Jarnhamar]

Collins you never mentioned that it was on the walls and other places as well. I found it weird that someone would be bothered by shooting at a target with the Nazi crap on it.  I guess someone could be offended that the swastika was actually used... I guess you gotta pick and choose your battles.

Private recruits are quite often, well, pretty stupid.  Only steers and queers are from Texas and your safety is your trigger finger. Why? TOO MUCH Full Metal Jacket and Black Hawk Down.  Private recruits talk because they think they need to say something.

If someone gets in your face and starts intimidating you with his gays should be shot bullshit remind him that gay Canadian soldiers are buried all over Europe and some of them probably died in Afghanistan too. If that doesn't stop him then
a. just bring it up your chain of command
b. smash him in the face
c. back down ignore it and let him get away with it. Maybe he'll get bored of it maybe not.

You're talking about different options "if and when you get out". The reserves are not a full time career like it is in the regular force. You can do all the stuff you mentioned while still being in the reserves.

Bottom line is stuff like "that's gay" gets used all over the military. Is it over used? Yes. Are people going to be offended? Yes. Is stopping it going to be like trying to nail tooth paste to the wall? yes.
In the case of a stupid private recruit trying to impress people spouting off, sort him out through the system.  You're going to get made fun of, you're feelings are gonna get hurt and you're gonna get banged up.  The army WILL break your body, you can't help that. Wether it breaks your spirit or not though is up to you.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You think you have it bad?  Try being Irish!  ;D

My better half is Irish-french.  I've actually been brought to the hospital in a whaaaambulance and recieved stitches when I got a little out of line.

 

[aesop081]

Let's not omit the point that those immediate supervisors who should have counseled on those policies failed to do so, and took actions that may be interpreted as attempts to neutralize his complaint.  They failed to provide the support and guidance they should have to resolve the issue.  He did take the necessary first actions; i.e., request that the actions be stopped and identify them to his superiors.

The member himself has been trained on CF policies and actions to take. He was thus aware of them and chose not to pursue them.

If an initial attempt at "alternate dispute resolution" is not found to be acceptable, it is up to the chain of command to ensure further appropriate actions are taken.

The member himself could have gone straight to his unit HA for further action. If the member did not want to do that, CF harassment policy offers several other avenues for resolution.

Again, he chose not to take action that he was well within his rights to take.

 

[Michael OLeary]

He took the actions available to him with the course staff, and failed to receive any support. If you wish to interpret that as a failure to take action, by all means do so.  His staff had responsibilities as well that were not taken up. The fault here does not rest solely with the soldier.

 

[aesop081]

His staff had responsibilities as well that were not taken up. The fault here does not rest solely with the soldier.

I'm not debating either point.

 

[Fusaki]

Out West, I could really run with this one, but I better not.

If that would be your decision, then I suggest you might consider moving to SanFrancisco.

There you might find your Life Style less subject to criticism or the subject of concern.

You should be embarrassed to put up that MP badge as your avatar, and then go on posting these kinds of inflammatory and discriminatory comments.

 

[FastEddy]

You should be embarrassed to put up that MP badge as your avatar, and then go on posting these kinds of inflammatory and discriminatory comments.

On the contrary, the running comment was meant as a joke, as the comment it referred to was also humorous and in that vein.

As for the other, the suggestion and comments they are factual and was offered as a possible solution. No where were derogatory or discriminatory remarks implied or stated.

However, it is your prerogative, if you wish to interpet it that way. 

The refferal to MP & Avatars is totally irrelevant.

 

[Loachman]

Can I paraphrase you.........I will anyway.

The difference is that some of those groups have been subject to very real oppression including enslavement and mass murder. They are a little more sensitive as a result, and understandably so.

People tell blonde (woman) jokes, but blondes are not actively discriminated against and, in fact, being blond gives one some social and career advantages according to a couple of articles that I have read, and everybody knows that we have more fun.

I do not think that it would be acceptable in general Canadian society today to use "Jewish" as a substitute for "stupid". "Gay" probably shouldn't be either. I cannot imagine "blond" ever becoming an insult, so even if somebody tried to use it as one it would only amuse me rather than offend me. I would probably ascribe it to jealousy on their part.

A retort to somebody using "gay" as an insult along those lines, ie "You're just jealous that you're not gay", may be effective (but also potentially risky).

It is interesting to note that some notoriously anti-gay politicians and preachers in the US have been caught in gay relationships. Generally the biggest protestors are merely trying to deflect suspicion of their own inner natures, or are denying their natures to themselves.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

A lot of one sided accusations and innuendo being thrown out here. I'm seeing no proof of action. Anyone can say "This happened to me!" Not saying it didn't, but.........

This soap box is being tossed onto the bonfire and a temporary lock put in place.

Usual caveats.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Occam]

As the friend of someone who served over 25 years before he recently "came out" (and I hate that expression), I'm very sorry to see this is still going on.

WO McLean, do not let the actions of some idiots keep you from continuing the good work that you have done on so many fronts.



Original article

A Canadian soldier who served in Afghanistan says he received a threatening note, written by someone working at Kandahar Airfield, because he is gay.

Warrant Officer Andrew McLean, who had tried to hide his sexual orientation, told CBC News that he found the letter on his work station in September, during his 4½-month tour of duty in Kandahar.

"It said, 'You're gay. Because of this, minus-2' … that's metric [for] six feet, 6½ feet under?" McLean said in an interview from Winnipeg, where he recently took part in the Rick Hansen Relay.

"I went through a lot of emotions. I went through anger, embarrassment, humiliation … fear for my safety."

Canadian Forces officials said a harassment complaint was launched when McLean came forward with the discovery, but a full investigation could not be conducted without knowing who left the note at the NATO-run airfield.

Officials told CBC News on Monday that McLean's complaint was taken seriously, and new military camp harassment policies were even developed as a result.

McLean has since been moved to another job.

Kept sexuality a secret

McLean said he had spent years trying to hide the fact that he was gay.

"I tried every trick in the book to be heterosexual," he said.

When asked why, he replied, "Because that's the conflict. That's what society expects you to be."

"You see the negativity all around you, and why would anybody choose to confront that?" he said.

McLean said he was deployed to Afghanistan in mid-July and spent two months there before the note was left on his desk.

"It was a gut punch," he said. "I had been there for two months, doing a really good job. We were working together."

McLean said he struggled for two days before taking the threat — and the truth about his sexuality — up the chain of command.

"These types of notes are what pushes people over the edge," he said.

Now with his sexuality out in the open, McLean said he feels like he is 100 per cent himself for the first time in his life. He said he hopes his experience will empower other gay men and women to take a stand.

While he said he may never know who left the note on his desk in Kandahar, he said he won't ignore what happened.

"If I don't stand up, who's going to stand up?" he said. "If I don't identify something, then who's going to identify it?"

 

[Stoker]

This is very unfortunate and uncalled for, however not surprising. With all the training we receive as members there still be some narrow minded people who will resort to these measures. I do hope though that the member did not report this to CBC himself, that I have a problem with.

 

[vonGarvin]

Before everyone crowds the "I'm not a homophobe" bandwagon, take a step back and read the note. 
"You're gay.  Because of this -2". 

Is that a threat?  Seriously?  If a threat were to be given anonymously, wouldn't it be more blatant, and include words like "faggot" or "queer" or worse?

Or could this be a case of someone leaving a note meant in jest, as in "you're gay: -2 points" (or whatever).  I mean, for the life of me, "-2" is supposed to be metric for six feet under?  If anything, threatening notes are a bit more....graphic.  Especially if they are anonymous.


It's been mentioned: why go to the CBC? 

I'm just not convinced that the note was as threatening as he made it out to be.  I'm not going to pretend that it was in good taste or even appropriate, but I'm suspicious to think that it was a threat.  I've seen some threats, and they have always been, as I mentioned, more graphic and blatant in their tone. Especially if they are anonymous.

My  :2c:

EDIT TO ADD:
The more I think about this, the more I think that we are all potentially capable of such unintended consequences, without even knowing or thinking about it.  As we banter around at work, at play, or whereever, there could be times where the word "gay" is thrown out there in a negative tone, without even realising that one of your mates could be a homosexual.  You see, if you don't know, then it means that they are still struggling with it.  And by tossing out such words (and I know I'm guilty of this), we are unintentionally offending them or even harming them, let alone confusing them.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Maybe the Gay - 2 has something to do with an addition to the PER system?

Now with his sexuality out in the open, McLean said he feels like he is 100 per cent himself for the first time in his life. He said he hopes his experience will empower other gay men and women to take a stand.

Kind of conflicting- It was a horrible horrible experience which ended with him feeling 100% himself and presumably unburdened by having to live a lie.
So should he really be upset or thank the note writer?

I'm suspicious to think that it was a threat

Me too.

 

[Scott]

Maybe the Gay - 2 has something to do with an addition to the PER system?


Kind of conflicting- It was a horrible horrible experience which ended with him feeling 100% himself and presumably unburdened by having to live a lie.
So should he really be upset or thank the note writer?
Me too.

I can't speak for WO McLean, but perhaps he feels better because he was able to talk to his CoC about it and found them supportive?

I can see why folks might be skeptical that it was indeed a threat, but that doesn't make the originator any less stupid for pulling a stunt like this.

 

[George Wallace]

With every passing minute, I am amazed at how many fracking stupid people there are out there. 

 

[Spooks]

When I read that note, I was perplexed that -2 meant '6ft under'.

Here on the forums, I don't see it happen as much anymore, buit does everyone remember the '+1' system. If you make an exceptional post, you get +2. I first viewed this based on that system.

I guess this makes me a nerd.

 

[vonGarvin]

With every passing minute, I am amazed at how many fracking stupid people there are out there.

Not just from this, but I'm convinced that we, humans, all of us, are dumb.  And that often times, we do things that have unintended consequences.

 

[405sqn]

Sounds like he's done some great work in the "Soldier On" program as well.  He was awarded the MSM last week (and has also been promoted):

Sergeant Charles Andrew McLean, M.M.M., M.S.M., C.D.

Ottawa, Ontario

Meritorious Service Medal (Military Division)

Since 2007, Sergeant McLean’s dedication to Soldier On, a program which he co-founded, has ensured the continued success of this initiative to optimize the functional independence of Canadian Forces members or former members who have become ill or who have been injured. His passion and commitment have provided opportunities for these individuals to reach beyond their physical limitations and find a better quality of life on their road to recovery and reintegration. Over the years, he has successfully promoted and created awareness of the needs of injured and ill Canadian Forces members and their families, as well as the programs available to them.

 

[Takeniteasy]

Good day, below is a letter I wrote to my friends and I thought I would share it here because Army.ca is a big reason for SO/SL success and many on here have supported my efforts over the years.

Being objective is not easy, I try to make decisions and judgments based on more then one source of information. I would not go on CBC unless I truly believed I had a good reason. All approvals achieved and signed..

Friends,

I would like to extend a heart felt THANKYOU for your show of support the past couple of days. I am not at all surprised at the depth of character of those whom I know and call my friends, I have also received msgs from people I do not know and that speaks volumes to their character as well. THANKYOU

It was an hour long interview expressed in 2min so believe me when I say there is more. The interview did focus on the perceived concern I had for my safety but I was able to mitigate that down to probably not (I believe I was justified in asking myself that question due to the environment I was in) No one should have to ask that question regarding the people they work with!

The note was a negative and it hurt and offended me as a person and I believe the uniform that I represent, I am a team player and what happens to one happens to all. I am far from perfect but I along with many I know work hard at the pursuit of excellance. That will never change.

As for the whole coming out thing, a few of my friends knew already and the past couple of years if someone asked I told them. (not many ask because it does not matter) I would say it was not so much of hiding but more on the side of trying hard to fit in and after years of trying reality catches up.

I will continue to push forward and I know I am not alone.

Without Regard for my personal comfort or self advancement
That Others May Live

Thank you all once again for your support and friendship.

Andrew
P.S. I will respond to everyone who sent me a msg or email.

GRIMALDUS: read the second para again, it was one of many. In the interview and with others I have been open in discussing my many different reactions..... also the note was left right after the DADT policy was repealed..... context and environment play a big role in how one perceives discrimination and harassment, if you are gay then you may have a greater insight then others due to a history of experiences. I also found the note to be pretty smart, most people do not come right out and say they are a bigot or racist or that they discriminate against a demographic, today they have learned to be smart in presenting words and probably one of the best ways to get people thinking is in the form of a riddle.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks Andrew