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The MRAAW: Spike or Javelin (Split from the giant LAV III thread)

ArmyRick

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Going back to spike and javelin, does anybody knew what system the CF has decided  to go with? I know they were trialing only those two systems a year ago (and only those two) for ALAWS.
 
For pers with DIN access, go to the gagetown access and go to the trials summary page on the LFTEU site, its on the year 2004 and look up the ALAWS Trials
 
Last that I had heard was that the ALAWS project was temporarily halted due to a re-evaluation of the direct fire capabilities of the CF to minimise redundancy.  When that will be completed and by whom, I do not know.  Personally I think that the Spike is fantastic but politically the Javelin may be more "acceptable".
 
plattypuss said:
  Personally I think that the Spike is fantastic but politically the Javelin may be more "acceptable".

I am illiterate when it comes to these systems, could you elaborate on that quote?
 
Some people out there question the "political correctness" of buying an Israeli system, there would also be the small problem of commonality with some of our allies.
 
I see... anyone have any links to websites with detail regarding the Spike?
 
I did a google search for "spike anti armor/armour" and found quite a few webpages.
 
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/javelin/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gill/

Try these two links - I find the site a good starting place for comparative analysis.  They are all equally fluffed. ;)
 
Yeah, I read up on the spike. Seems impressive. What's the difference as opposed to the javelin... I mean cost wise. Is it much cheaper?

I mean, I hear there aren't much live-fire testing done of the javelin or ADATS because of the cost factor... so how can AD soldiers get trained properly?

If they do live-fire tests, what do they shoot? Remote control airplanes or something?
 
Fry, try and keep up with the conversation. Javelin MANPADS and Javelin Anti-armor are two different systems  ::)

Javelin ALAAWS has had plenty of missiles fired and the spike is probably better system (There is a whole family of spike anti-armor missiles made for 600m up to 8,000m).
USA produces javelin and Israel makes spike.
 
Thanks for filling me in. Like mentioned earlier, I am very illiterate in this field.
 
The LFTEU trial was mainly concerned with the DRI evaluation of the sight systems. No live firing took place. I cannot comment on the results of the trial.
 
Fry,

Also check out these threads-

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21034.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22360.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/19952.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25800.0.html
 
Just to let you guys know, since the testing was done with the Brits, the Brits have chosen Javelin over Spike.
 
OK, I was in Gagetown when the Brits were doing their live fire evaluation of the Spike and the Javelin and I was lucky enough to run into the PM from DLR who was there observing. I think both missiles are suitable for what we need but don't let the Brit selection of Javelin fool you into thinking it is definitely the better system. They may have placed 'interoperability' and keeping their biggest ally happy above the pure techinical merits of the systems.

That being said, there are a lot of things going for the Spike system that I think make it a better system. Like the Javelin, it can be used in a fire and forget mode, but unlike the Javelin, it also has the option of a Fire, Observe and Update mode which allows more accurate targeting or even re-targeting after launch. This combined with the fact that the Spike family could be the solution to a number of our needs makes it more acceptable to me. For example, we could purchase the Spike MR (range 2,500m) and the Spike LR (range 4,000m) for use at the Company and Battalion level respectively. The MR and LR missiles weigh the same and use the same CLU.

Then there is the Spike ER (or NTD) which has an 8km range and can be fired NLOS (meaning the firer cannot see his target at launch but acquires it through the missile's seeker during flight). This, to me, would seem to be a good TOW replacement for use on a modified TUA chassis as it has double the range of the TOW and the NLOS capability that TOW does not have. Also, if we ever decide to arm the Griffon, the Spike ER would be a good choice for commonality and capability reasons.

So, in summary, me like Spike.

MG
 
FWIW:

I started off being bothered that our fearless procurement types were not moving expeditiously on the Javelin.  It seemed like an excellent bet and the Brits, Yanks, Kiwis and a bunch of others have bought it etc.

However.  Time moves on and while the Javelin is the best technology that the 90's can offer the Spike family has been able to take advantage of more current technologies.  While Fire and Forget is highly desirable, the Non Line of Sight capability, the Recce/Update possibilities and the commonalities associated with fielding a 2.5/4/8 km family of systems as Mortar Guy suggests, all make it a really attractive option - to this Armchair General anyway.

Cheers.
 
Mortor Guy
"Like the Javelin, it can be used in a fire and forget mode, but unlike the Javelin, it also has the option of a Fire, Observe and Update mode which allows more accurate targeting or even re-targeting after launch."

What is Fire, Observe, and Update mode? And how does it allow for more accurate targeting and retargeting?
 
The fire, observe and update mode is where the Spike is fired and remains linked to the firing post by fibre optic.  This means the firer has the view from the seeker head of the missile in flight.  Supposedly this means that the firer can change targets or compensate for the movement of the target if the missile is not tracking the target for some reason.  Could also be used for simple observation on the other side of the hill and then engage any targets of opportunity or just take a look around.  Not this is a missile and has a very short flight time so your vehicle recognition and SA would have to be 110% accurate.
Nice idea if it works...
 
The Fire, Observe and Update mode is in addition to Fire and Forget mode, while during the Fire, Observe and Update Mode a physical Fiber Optic line links the Missile to Spike launcher, I am Correct?  And this feature is only on the Extended Range Missiles (>2.5km). 

For a medium range AT missile, this feature would be duplicating capabitilies of the TOW ITAS (acquired for TUA), and since the TOW ITAS can fire a Javelin Missile, a Javelin Acquistion would be in favour over Spike,


 
Yes, if you want to see the output from the seeker in the Spike you have to use the fibre optic link.

Firing the Spike at ranges greater than 2.5 km also requires use of the fibre link (not sure if this is applicable to Dandy).

I'm not sure what you mean by duplicating the capabilities of ITAS.  Javelin has no link and capability to be linked.
 
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