The Next Conservative Leader

[Jarnhamar]

Not sure how effective screening would be.

Example.
"‘You are now in Canada’: Anger management ordered for Iranian-born man who attacked wife’s boss"

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/you-are-now-in-canada-anger-management-ordered-for-iranian-born-man-who-attacked-wifes-boss

An Iran-born Edmonton man has been ordered to take anger management courses following a “nasty” attack on his wife’s boss stemming from a male co-worker saying hello to her in a mall.

Aadel Moradi, 39, was given a suspended sentence and placed on probation for 18 months on Tuesday in provincial court after pleading guilty to assault charges over what was an apparent clash of cultures.

“You are now in Canada. We do not place restrictions on the way that women live here, unlike in some other countries,” said MacDonald, adding it is “very sad” that Moradi doesn’t see it.

“No men are allowed to speak to his wife and she can’t speak to any men.”

Shaigec told court that Moradi, based on his culture and upbringing, had been offended by his wife’s co-worker approaching her in public and speaking to her without first introducing himself to Moradi.

This sounds like a prime example of a new comer to Canada who's culture clashes with ours except he's been in Canada 15 years.

The Oh it's my culture trash isn't an excuse.  If someone believes a certain barbaric way of acting is right, but
in order to get all the benefits that Canada offers them they need to say it's wrong, I'm pretty sure they'll just lie about it to get in. You can't change someone overnight, or in 15 years in some cases.





 

 

[Jed]

Not sure how effective screening would be.

Example.
"‘You are now in Canada’: Anger management ordered for Iranian-born man who attacked wife’s boss"

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/you-are-now-in-canada-anger-management-ordered-for-iranian-born-man-who-attacked-wifes-boss

This sounds like a prime example of a new comer to Canada who's culture clashes with ours except he's been in Canada 15 years.

The Oh it's my culture trash isn't an excuse.  If someone believes a certain barbaric way of acting is right, but
in order to get all the benefits that Canada offers them they need to say it's wrong, I'm pretty sure they'll just lie about it to get in. You can't change someone overnight, or in 15 years in some cases.

Agreed. But at least if incoming immigrants have this credo / gauntlet ? up front coming in country they can't say they weren't advised.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Agreed. But at least if incoming immigrants have this credo / gauntlet ? up front coming in country they can't say they weren't advised.

.......and when they do try some of their horseshit, like the guy above, they can be warned and a second offence gets them sent packing.

Human Right Commissions and Tribunals need stringent guidelines when dealing with complaints of this nature, so they don't operate in the same wishy washy kumbaya mode that they have been. Personally, I think HRC's should be gotten rid of.

I believe there is no place in this country for muslim enclaves that exist to retain their ME culture of law and religion. If they can't fit into the bubble of the Charter of Rights & Freedoms, Canadian law and Canadian norms, they shouldn't be here.

They need a ROE when they come here for screening.
ie - In Canada women can wear what they want. Women can speak to who they want. Women do not require male escorts to go shopping. Leave the acid and flammables at home, we don't use them against women here and you can't drown all your daughters because they dress like Canadians and have Canadian friends.

Lastly, and most important, we have to stop letting the UNHCR decide who settles here. That job belongs to Canadians.

 

[ballz]

We have no principle belief to be the foundation of our "values," hence our values are relatively meaningless. The government infringes upon the Charter of Rights and Freedoms whenever it is convenient / in order to appease the majority (the reason we have a constitutional democracy is to stop the majority from committing tyranny against the minority). It's hard to screen for values when you have none, and its hard to tell people to do no harm to others when you constantly do so for your own benefit.

We choose willy nilly feelings instead of solid principles, and hence contradict our own "values" all the time.

 

[jollyjacktar]

As long as you keep blindly hating everything team red does up to and including drawing breath.

:cheers:

I'm not totally blind in my distaste for team rouge. I have a good opinion of Sajin.  And "blind" insinuates without thought or consideration.  The distaste I have has been thought of.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

.......and when they do try some of their horseshit, like the guy above, they can be warned and a second offence gets them sent packing.

Human Right Commissions and Tribunals need stringent guidelines when dealing with complaints of this nature, so they don't operate in the same wishy washy kumbaya mode that they have been. Personally, I think HRC's should be gotten rid of.

I believe there is no place in this country for muslim enclaves that exist to retain their ME culture of law and religion. If they can't fit into the bubble of the Charter of Rights & Freedoms, Canadian law and Canadian norms, they shouldn't be here.

They need a ROE when they come here for screening.
ie - In Canada women can wear what they want. Women can speak to who they want. Women do not require male escorts to go shopping. Leave the acid and flammables at home, we don't use them against women here and you can't drown all your daughters because they dress like Canadians and have Canadian friends.

Lastly, and most important, we have to stop letting the UNHCR decide who settles here. That job belongs to Canadians.

So, what do we do for born and raised Canadians who violate these values? The guy in Brantford was born here as an example. Do we strip them of citizenship? As for the other examples, females in Canada can go to any number of resources if they feel they are being abused or harassed and someone who murders their family are still liable to the penalties of law for murder (regardless of the why... what is the inherent difference between the mom who drowns her children because she gets angry at them or the dad who kills his daughter because he offends her? They're both murders and subject to the same punishment). The "strike" system is a slippery slope as it opens things up to false accusations and tiers of citizens, both of which are unacceptable in Canada.

The muslim enclave argument is off base as well. Almost all immigrant groups form enclaves upon arrival. There are still Ukrainian, German, Dutch, italian, chinese, indian, etc enclaves throughout Canada (each with their own unique "me" cultures). That's why there's no easy Canadian culture to define or Canadian values- these often differ by region. If we had done this for Germans (actually, we did... and Ukrainians, Japanese, etc) than we wouldn't have Oktoberfest nor would Germans have ever really integrated.

Next, the UNHCR doesn't decide who comes here, the government does. The government may accept recommendations, but the final say is with OUR government, so this is definitely a strawman.

Created dual systems in Canada wont help anyone integrate into our society. It just creates separate sets of rules for citizens and creates bitterness. The divide between classes and the anger in France is a big part of why they've had so many internal attacks... why would we want to emulate that?

Finally... there are no universal "Canadian values" so what would we ever base this on? It's foolish

 

[MARS]

My point was that pot will be legal in 2016 and tax revenue from that will start coming in. I stand by that. The forecasted deficits will be smaller when that new revenue stream comes online.

It doesn't matter to me how long they take - I have no dog in this fight - but I am close to a public servant working on that file.  Summer 2017 for the staff to submit their way ahead plan up the chain, so add several months to that, at least, for vetting at higher levels

 

[ModlrMike]

It doesn't matter to me how long they take - I have no dog in this fight - but I am close to a public servant working on that file.  Summer 2017 for the staff to submit their way ahead plan up the chain, so add several months to that, at least, for vetting at higher levels

Of course the US refusing entry to pot smokers won't have any effect on implementation.

 

[Jed]

1.  So, what do we do for born and raised Canadians who violate these values? The guy in Brantford was born here as an example. Do we strip them of citizenship? As for the other examples, females in Canada can go to any number of resources if they feel they are being abused or harassed and someone who murders their family are still liable to the penalties of law for murder (regardless of the why... what is the inherent difference between the mom who drowns her children because she gets angry at them or the dad who kills his daughter because he offends her? They're both murders and subject to the same punishment). The "strike" system is a slippery slope as it opens things up to false accusations and tiers of citizens, both of which are unacceptable in Canada.

The muslim enclave argument is off base as well.  2. Almost all immigrant groups form enclaves upon arrival. There are still Ukrainian, German, Dutch, italian, chinese, indian, etc enclaves throughout Canada (each with their own unique "me" cultures). That's why there's no easy Canadian culture to define or Canadian values- these often differ by region. If we had done this for Germans (actually, we did... and Ukrainians, Japanese, etc) than we wouldn't have Oktoberfest nor would Germans have ever really integrated.

Next, the UNHCR doesn't decide who comes here, the government does. The government may accept recommendations, but the final say is with OUR government, so this is definitely a strawman.

3.  Created dual systems in Canada wont help anyone integrate into our society. It just creates separate sets of rules for citizens and creates bitterness. The divide between classes and the anger in France is a big part of why they've had so many internal attacks... why would we want to emulate that?

Finally... there are no universal "Canadian values" so what would we ever base this on? It's foolish

1. They are Canadian citizens. They get treated exactly the same as everybody else.  The laws of the land.

2. There is a big difference from the Euro type enclave and the way immigrants were invited into areas to be settled in Canada as they opened up sparsely populated areas 100 - 150 years ago.  Incoming people should have respect for the culture they are coming in to just as Canadians should have respect for whatever countries culture that they wish to go into.

3.  Of course. Everybody should follow the same rules.  Religious police  or Communist Political officers and what not are not welcome and should not be allowed  anymore than Biker gangs are allowed. It is all fine until laws are broken. 

Society has a way of naturally ostracizing those who refuse to fit in. Respect and Acceptance for the most part, need to be earned, not mandated and regulated.

Agitators of all sorts are now tolerated until the law gets sufficiently trampled on and the population rises up and says enough of this BS.

I could be wrong but I think you missed Recce's point that newbies should at least be given ROE's before they enjoy the fruits of our country.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

1. They are Canadian citizens. They get treated exactly the same as everybody else.  The laws of the land.

2. There is a big difference from the Euro type enclave and the way immigrants were invited into areas to be settled in Canada as they opened up sparsely populated areas 100 - 150 years ago.  Incoming people should have respect for the culture they are coming in to just as Canadians should have respect for whatever countries culture that they wish to go into.

3.  Of course. Everybody should follow the same rules.  Religious police  or Communist Political officers and what not are not welcome and should not be allowed  anymore than Biker gangs are allowed. It is all fine until laws are broken. 

Society has a way of naturally ostracizing those who refuse to fit in. Respect and Acceptance for the most part, need to be earned, not mandated and regulated.

Agitators of all sorts are now tolerated until the law gets sufficiently trampled on and the population rises up and says enough of this BS.

I could be wrong but I think you missed Recce's point that newbies should at least be given ROE's before they enjoy the fruits of our country.

I understood his point, I just think he's dead wrong.

1. Naturalized Canadians and born Canadians, once given citizenship, must be judged against the same rules despite religious differences. Once they are approved for citizenship the vetting process has to end, full stop, as they are then expected to live under the same rules.We can't have classes of citizens. If we do, then where does our concept of "Canadian values" end? A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. 

2. I think that if you studied European colonization you would appreciate that little has changed since Europeans arrived here. Catholic citizens of New France said the same thing about Huegenot (Protestant) immigrants coming to New France, English said the same of Irish and Scots, they all said the same of Ukrainians, Germans, and Italians, etc etc etc. Than those immigrants hate Chinese and black immigrants. I attached 4 x political cartoons from the 1800's (3 American, 1 Canadian) for context. These arguments are nothing new, and those who wish to continue them will just be on the wrong side of history again once a new Boogey man arises. I also attach this link. Yes, the Atlantic is left leaning, but the cartoons are period and historically accurate.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/racist-anti-immigrant-cartoons-from-the-turn-of-the-20th-century/383248/

Also, find a link to a good book on racist immigration policies. It's from the Canadian Scholar's Press, so the validity is a touch higher than a blog.

http://www.cspi.org/books/the-history-of-immigration-and-racism-in-canada

3. Yes. All Canadian immigrants are vetted based on a large number of factors and do a citizenship test. Once the laws are broken the criminals are punished. Mrs Leitch's proposal doesn't assist any of this. Her prpposal would just lead to arbitrary "values" being used to test values... we have laws that are effective.

to reiterate- I know Syrian refugee's who share more of the "Canadians values" than many Canadians I've known, including some in the military. There is no way to 100% guarantee safety, but these measures just add to terrorist propaganda and serve to weaken the values that we are supposed to represent.

 

[Jed]

BG45

I believe you are reading too much between the lines when you equate your last post wrt to past bigotry and racism to Ms Lietch's proposal to attempt 'enlightening' of incoming peoples to this great Country of ours as one and the same.

Is it too much to ask anyone to be cognizant of the Laws of the land and cultural norms before they become a citizen or even to reside in Canada for lengthy periods of time? I don't think so.  Most other countries in the world do not think so either.

Countries that have been foolish enough to just twiddle their thumbs and hope the problem goes away are now in great turmoil. ie France, Germany, Sweden, Britain, Australia.

Are the US and Canada now going to be cursed with the same problem?  Maybe we should be getting hard headed like Israel or Saudi Arabia and look after our current citizens first and foremost?

I personally believe in immigration.  I also believe it at least setting out the expectations prior to people enjoying the fruits of our great Country.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

BG45

I believe you are reading too much between the lines when you equate your last post wrt to past bigotry and racism to Ms Lietch's proposal to attempt 'enlightening' of incoming peoples to this great Country of ours as one and the same.

Is it too much to ask anyone to be cognizant of the Laws of the land and cultural norms before they become a citizen or even to reside in Canada for lengthy periods of time? I don't think so.  Most other countries in the world do not think so either.

Countries that have been foolish enough to just twiddle their thumbs and hope the problem goes away are now in great turmoil. ie France, Germany, Sweden, Britain, Australia.

Are the US and Canada now going to be cursed with the same problem?  Maybe we should be getting hard headed like Israel or Saudi Arabia and look after our current citizens first and foremost?

I personally believe in immigration.  I also believe it at least setting out the expectations prior to people enjoying the fruits of our great Country.

We already do set out standards and have an expectation for incoming citizens:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/become-eligibility.asp

We expect income tax filings, that persons not be convicted or on trial for a crime against Canadian law (for a time, but in extreme cases this would be a no go criteria), and that persons pass a citizenship test that includes history, VALUES, institutions, and symbols.

So what is missing that this plan would help?

That's why I disagree that I'm reading between the lines too much. It's just a new reiteration of the same examples I provided and that Trump is mouth breathing to our south. Like the literacy tests designed to keep the irish our of the US this test would be designed to keep our new undesirables out. The results will be the same.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why wouldn't we want to keep undesirables out? :dunno:

So, if these others want to come here, to cut to the chase,  perhaps they need to understand and prove that they are familiar with our norms and sensibilities and that their barbaric tribal ideas and practices don't fly here. Should they violate them, they go to jail. Deny a service dog in your cab, go to jail. Berate someone for how they are dressed, yup, go to jail. Bring your daughter into emergency because their illegal circumcision::? Lose them to child services and go to jail. Rinse & repeat. The problem is with those that come here intent on converting and killing us.

Lastly, the enclaves in Europe have existed for a long time. Canada just needs to catch  up. The free city of Toronto has already allowed muslim only housing, refusing to let anyone else rent there, even though it's illegal to discriminate against them.

I refuse to sit by and accept that Trudeau's plan is good for everyone and the country. In my opinion, it's a scam for more votes, and for the sake of our citizens I hope people wake up.
:2c:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Everyone loves it when the government of the day asks cultural questions they agree with. 

If you let one government of any stripe set up this kind of test, though, then any future government can change the questions -- even to ones folks may not like or agree with.  What then?

#thinedgeofthewedge

Lots of laws & rules out there to deal with illegal cultural practices - let's use those more aggressively  & consistently, shall we?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Why wouldn't we want to keep undesirables out? :dunno:

So, if these others want to come here, to cut to the chase,  perhaps they need to understand and prove that they are familiar with our norms and sensibilities and that their barbaric tribal ideas and practices don't fly here. Should they violate them, they go to jail. Deny a service dog in your cab, go to jail. Berate someone for how they are dressed, yup, go to jail. Bring your daughter into emergency because their illegal circumcision::? Lose them to child services and go to jail. Rinse & repeat. The problem is with those that come here intent on converting and killing us.

Lastly, the enclaves in Europe have existed for a long time. Canada just needs to catch  up. The free city of Toronto has already allowed muslim only housing, refusing to let anyone else rent there, even though it's illegal to discriminate against them.

I refuse to sit by and accept that Trudeau's plan is good for everyone and the country. In my opinion, it's a scam for more votes, and for the sake of our citizens I hope people wake up.
:2c:

I meant "undesirables" in a sarcastic sense, in that this proposal is mostly an anti-muslim screening process in a similar vein to many historical ones. It was not a literal. I have noted several times with sources stating that we ALREADY screen and do values/history/institutional testing and have a standard.

How many people in Canada have suffered from illegal circumcisions? Some women who entered have, but I can't find a single case where it's happened here. So this is a simply bogeyman. Same for the other examples... aside from onesies and twosies these are not widespread occurrences.

As for enclaves, they exist in Canada. Just yesterday I went and bought corn from a hutterite colony in Manitoba. I grew up in Ontario around old order amish and Mennonites who lived in clusters, spoke different languages, and refused to integrate into Canadian society. When I lived in Vaughn, Ontario there was an Italian enclave. Brampton is a Hindu enclave. Perhaps we should kick out the Hutterites and amish too then? They often practice incest (debate as you want, but I GUARANTEE this one), force women to be subjugated, etc. Aside from you strawman argument that muslim people will be terrorists where's the outrage?

You can refuse to sit by all you want, but you're on the wrong side of history. Leitsch's values checklist is just a thinly veiled attempt to reach out to people's base fears. Look at any study which shows how many deaths are attributed to terrorism vs other ways of dying

 

[Altair]

I meant "undesirables" in a sarcastic sense, in that this proposal is mostly an anti-muslim screening process in a similar vein to many historical ones. It was not a literal. I have noted several times with sources stating that we ALREADY screen and do values/history/institutional testing and have a standard.

How many people in Canada have suffered from illegal circumcisions? Some women who entered have, but I can't find a single case where it's happened here. So this is a simply bogeyman. Same for the other examples... aside from onesies and twosies these are not widespread occurrences.

As for enclaves, they exist in Canada. Just yesterday I went and bought corn from a hutterite colony in Manitoba. I grew up in Ontario around old order amish and Mennonites who lived in clusters, spoke different languages, and refused to integrate into Canadian society. When I lived in Vaughn, Ontario there was an Italian enclave. Brampton is a Hindu enclave. Perhaps we should kick out the Hutterites and amish too then? They often practice incest (debate as you want, but I GUARANTEE this one), force women to be subjugated, etc. Aside from you strawman argument that muslim people will be terrorists where's the outrage?

You can refuse to sit by all you want, but you're on the wrong side of history. Leitsch's values checklist is just a thinly veiled attempt to reach out to people's base fears. Look at any study which shows how many deaths are attributed to terrorism vs other ways of dying

Well, this line of politics has been refreshed and recycled throughout the years.

The Irish, the Italians,  the Chinese, Jamaicans,  Haitians, now people from the middle east. If it worked before why not now?

 

[Jed]

I meant "undesirables" in a sarcastic sense, in that this proposal is mostly an anti-muslim screening process in a similar vein to many historical ones. It was not a literal. I have noted several times with sources stating that we ALREADY screen and do values/history/institutional testing and have a standard.

How many people in Canada have suffered from illegal circumcisions? Some women who entered have, but I can't find a single case where it's happened here. So this is a simply bogeyman. Same for the other examples... aside from onesies and twosies these are not widespread occurrences.

As for enclaves, they exist in Canada. Just yesterday I went and bought corn from a hutterite colony in Manitoba. I grew up in Ontario around old order amish and Mennonites who lived in clusters, spoke different languages, and refused to integrate into Canadian society. When I lived in Vaughn, Ontario there was an Italian enclave. Brampton is a Hindu enclave. Perhaps we should kick out the Hutterites and amish too then? They often practice incest (debate as you want, but I GUARANTEE this one), force women to be subjugated, etc. Aside from you strawman argument that muslim people will be terrorists where's the outrage?

You can refuse to sit by all you want, but you're on the wrong side of history. Leitsch's values checklist is just a thinly veiled attempt to reach out to people's base fears. Look at any study which shows how many deaths are attributed to terrorism vs other ways of dying

This is just ridiculous.  It is an extreme stretch to associate / compare Hutterite colonies with Muslim enclaves around the world.  For the most part these colonies that are numerous throughout Canada function well within our Canadian laws and norms.

You could talk about Dukabors possibly, but eventually they have assimilated with the rest of the Canadian Society.

Could it be that the reason that Muslim peoples seem to be coming to the forefront in Societies concerns is because their religion eventually demands they force their practises on their neighbours and is totally intolerant of any other peoples way of life?

There have not been very many other peoples that strap on bombs to their feeble minded, and women and children on a regular basis and send them in to slaughter innocents.

You sound like an Extremist Muslim appeaser.  Is it too much to ask people to at least acknowledge a countries Laws and cultural norms?

 

[jollyjacktar]

:goodpost:  on the whole

 

[PuckChaser]

Remember, if someone can't argue directly on the topic, they can just accuse you of racism to try to win the argument.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Altair]
Well, this line of politics has been refreshed and recycled throughout the years.

The Irish, the Italians,  the Chinese, Jamaicans,  Haitians, now people from the middle east. If it worked before why not now?
[/quote]

I know. I don't even know why people are getting upset. Remember the crusades? Exactly. Plus people die every day from car accidents and stuff like that, people are just being racist.  There's no difference between what happened with the Irish and Italians with what's happening today world wide with Islam.