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The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces

Jarnhamar

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Weinie said:
OK. Where is the CAF order "ordering" pers to go onto Internet/Facebook. Show me.


I've seen a few email chains that start on high where a general or colonel makes a suggestion. Something along the lines of "let's see if we can get some more interest in this voluntary thing".

By the time it makes its way down to the company and platoon level it turns into "troops WILL do this and have it complete NLT tomorrow morning. Confirm to me when all pers have completed it"


Not an order from the "CAF" but an order from the CAF.

If a unit chief orders the unit to be on Facebook to join a change of command parade troops generally won't say no even if it does sound like a wonky thing.
 

dimsum

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Eye In The Sky said:
Mine is an email from the CO, thru my Flight Commander.  "Sqn [virutal] morning briefs are mandatory attendance"; they were done on FB live and ZOOM.  If you didn't have FB, you were encouraged to 'join' and as a minimum, expected to watch the recording later if nothing else.

I would love to see the charge of AWOL being thrown out because someone has a bad Internet connection and can't join the FB/Zoom conference.

Considering there are zero questions 99% of the time on Sqn morning briefs, why can't they just be a bullet-point document of what the CO, etc wants to say?  Or even have the exec do a meeting and have the minutes sent out to the sqn?
 

Weinie

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Jarnhamar said:
I've seen a few email chains that start on high where a general or colonel makes a suggestion. Something along the lines of "let's see if we can get some more interest in this voluntary thing".

By the time it makes its way down to the company and platoon level it turns into "troops WILL do this and have it complete NLT tomorrow morning. Confirm to me when all pers have completed it"


Not an order from the "CAF" but an order from the CAF.

If a unit chief orders the unit to be on Facebook to join a change of command parade troops generally won't say no even if it does sound like a wonky thing.

I was the ADC to a two star in the early nineties. When we visited units, the subbies that I knew would say "what the phuk was the General thinking when he ordered XYZ." After several iterations, it became apparent that the interpretations and orders passed down through the one star, colonels. LCol's, Coy Comds, Pl Comds, CSM's was like the version of phone tag that I posted earlier, the original intent was nothing like the end message. Garbage passed at the high end equals garbage.  Just trying to clean up the trash.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Hamish Seggie said:
Is Facebook secure? I don't think so.
:facepalm:

How ridiculous.

Nothing that shouldn't have been discussed (Designated/Classified) was but...still.

ZOOM...I actually will not use it, on my personal phone/laptop/desktop devices.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Dimsum said:
I would love to see the charge of AWOL being thrown out because someone has a bad Internet connection and can't join the FB/Zoom conference.

Considering there are zero questions 99% of the time on Sqn morning briefs, why can't they just be a bullet-point document of what the CO, etc wants to say?  Or even have the exec do a meeting and have the minutes sent out to the sqn?

:dunno:

I can tell you there was Comd in the RCAF and RCN that did 'virtual townhalls', and Sqn's that did virtual Morning Prayers.

I'd rather Leadership be honest and use words like "encouraged to partake" instead of "mandatory attendance".  I was wondering if the Sqn's/units doing this were actually watching/caring about the # of people who were "attending", almost like "rating" would be to a TV program.
 

Halifax Tar

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Weinie said:
I was the ADC to a two star in the early nineties. When we visited units, the subbies that I knew would say "what the phuk was the General thinking when he ordered XYZ." After several iterations, it became apparent that the interpretations and orders passed down through the one star, colonels. LCol's, Coy Comds, Pl Comds, CSM's was like the version of phone tag that I posted earlier, the original intent was nothing like the end message. Garbage passed at the high end equals garbage.  Just trying to clean up the trash.

This is why anything other than the next day’s timings should be issued via written orders using brevity and conciseness.  While avoiding all ambiguity.
 

daftandbarmy

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Weinie said:
I was the ADC to a two star in the early nineties. When we visited units, the subbies that I knew would say "what the phuk was the General thinking when he ordered XYZ." After several iterations, it became apparent that the interpretations and orders passed down through the one star, colonels. LCol's, Coy Comds, Pl Comds, CSM's was like the version of phone tag that I posted earlier, the original intent was nothing like the end message. Garbage passed at the high end equals garbage.  Just trying to clean up the trash.

I had a (clearly insane) CO try to charge people for not replying to his emails.

Maybe that's the result of one of these misinterpretations? ;)
 

Kilted

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Jarnhamar said:
Right?

If I'm logging in to Facebook to watch a change of command parade do I have to change my name to my real name or can I stick with my screen name, Sugar ButtButtt.

What if the chain of command doesn't like some of the facebook groups I'm in. Can they tell me to leave them? I can be charged or put on administrative action for liking memes or posts after all.

I know it sounds like I'm just stiring the pot (the order to watch a Facebook change of command parade is a real thing out west) but it's interesting to see where we'll draw the line with this stuff.


That reminds me of the whole Bloggins issue back in 2014. I remember hearing a lot of rumours that people were going to get charged for liking that page.

That was a big gong show that I'm surprised we haven't had more similar issues.

Did they ever publicly name who was responsible for it?
 

Jarnhamar

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It's possible to put ones foot down and fight the system when a unit oversteps their bounds. Paying for a civilian lawyer when one is getting threatened frivolously helps people think twice as well.

You can also randomly get pulled off being course loaded on a coveted ARP course to do a tasking capable of being filled by someone a couple ranks below you and posted away afterwards, too.

Sounds like the makings of a good book. Hills to die on.  ;D
 

ballz

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Weinie said:
You may be old enough to remember the game of "phone tag" where one person in a circle starts a message and then whispers it in the ear of the next, and so on until it reaches the end, with often hilarious/catastrophic results.

Indeed, which is what I alluded to when I said it started with direction from L1 ("all Changes of Command ceremonies will be live-streamed") and predictably turned into something (even more) ridiculous. Personally I'm more surprised by the fact that this is surprising, this is just an every day occurrence. As Jarnhammer notes, most just aren't a good hill to die on for your average person, they're just a mildly annoying, mostly harmless, common occurrence.

Meanwhile a few million dollars in compensation for soldiers that was publicly ordered to be paid out a year ago by the CDS still has no action or even an indication that anyone who can do something about it actually will...
 

SupersonicMax

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We use Microsoft Teams for work on our personal devices (with a DND Teams account).  It works well and we can share up to Prot A and discuss up to Prot B via voice.  It is on my personal device (iPad in my case) and it costs me 0 extra to run it.  It probably takes 5GB of data a month. 

I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices.... 
 

reveng

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SupersonicMax said:
I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

Many civilian jobs (private and public) supply the hardware and cover the costs when they expect you to be responsive. Obviously not all, and I'm sure it depends. But lots of employers find a way to make it happen (with smaller budgets, and less IT/procurement staff than CAF/DND)

I get that it's not practical to issue every Pte/Cpl a tablet or smartphone. But organizations also don't need to go overboard in what they expect a person to do on their own device and dime. If it is so vital that someone be responsive, provide the means.
 

Halifax Tar

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ballz said:
Indeed, which is what I alluded to when I said it started with direction from L1 ("all Changes of Command ceremonies will be live-streamed") and predictably turned into something (even more) ridiculous. Personally I'm more surprised by the fact that this is surprising, this is just an every day occurrence. As Jarnhammer notes, most just aren't a good hill to die on for your average person, they're just a mildly annoying, mostly harmless, common occurrence.

Meanwhile a few million dollars in compensation for soldiers that was publicly ordered to be paid out a year ago by the CDS still has no action or even an indication that anyone who can do something about it actually will...

Im sorry, what now ?  Did I miss something ?
 

Furniture

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SupersonicMax said:
We use Microsoft Teams for work on our personal devices (with a DND Teams account).  It works well and we can share up to Prot A and discuss up to Prot B via voice.  It is on my personal device (iPad in my case) and it costs me 0 extra to run it.  It probably takes 5GB of data a month. 

I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

I also use my personal computers to conduct business when at home, or on the road through DND O365, and find it far more convenient than scrolling through my work phone to read emails, and reports. 

In my opinion O365 is one of the positive things to come from the whole pandemic response. While I get that some people may not have the ability to use it, I'd hate to see it taken away from the rest of us. 
 

dapaterson

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Furniture said:
I also use my personal computers to conduct business when at home, or on the road through DND O365, and find it far more convenient than scrolling through my work phone to read emails, and reports. 

In my opinion O365 is one of the positive things to come from the whole pandemic response. While I get that some people may not have the ability to use it, I'd hate to see it taken away from the rest of us.

O365 is a stopgap, poorly planned, that is further fracturing our IM ability.  Is that email / document in O365, or DWAN, or CSNI or... ?  Which address was it sent to?  Where is it stored as an item of business value?  How do we migrate from one to the other?  Who has access to which system?

Computer programs are easy.  Managing the resulting data and information?  That's the hard part, and where we have significant friction.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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SupersonicMax said:
I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices.... 

Really?  Any?  Well mine doesn't.....my GF's doesn't.  That's at least 2 just seconds after reading your post.

 

mariomike

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SupersonicMax said:
I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

I looked forward to their calls to my home phone. Four (4) hours pay at time-and-a-half.
 

Edward Campbell

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Maybe a bit :eek:ff topic: but ...

I know that no one ever wants to hear about COMSEC, but, unfortunately, unlike about 98% of what 95% of all CF GOFOs say and do, COMSEC actually matters.

The CF's use of the Gov't of Canada's security system remains a stupid mistake ... ALL military members and all DND civilians working on military issues should use ONLY the military security system which has detailed, enforceable rules (you, even a general, can go to prison for a long time for breaking them) and the COMSEC implications of those rules are well understood and well documented (were, 20+ years ago, anyway).

(Anecdotally, 20+ years ago I sat in a van with a handful of senior PCO and CF people. My techs used a piece of readily available civilian equipment that, back then, cost more than a luxury downtown condo, and we "read" a cabinet document from a secure DND computer, all because the senior officer behind the computer didn't want her/his desk and chair too far away from the window. (S)he was, by the way, several stories high and I was parked more than a block away ... that's how far the radiation from a CRT computer screen used to travel.)

Today's LED screens produce less (but nowhere near zero) radiation, but they can still be "read." And high-grade receivers and very high gain antennae are cheaper and smaller today, too, and are readily available on the open market ... just look at the Rohde & Schwarz product line to see what any civilian can buy. Governments, ours and foreign ones, can buy even better kit and I would be shocked if foreign agents are not using it in Ottawa, today.

Every CF members who is required to work outside of the secure office area should have a shielded computer (MilSpec 461, I think) (yes, they are heavier and more expensive) connected via a secure link (SCIP, now, I think) to the DND network. Anything less is amateurish.

My (out of date, I've been retired since some of you were in diapers) but still informed opinion.


Edited to add:

By the way, I have been convinced (since 1984) that the CF is directed (politically), managed and commanded by amateurs. Before 1984 I suspected that but I could not see it, close up ... nothing has changed my opinion in the intervening 35 years.
 

daftandbarmy

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mariomike said:
I looked forward to their calls to my home phone. Four (4) hours pay at time-and-a-half.

And that's exactly how I've seen some of my (smarter) clients deal with that, especially for unionized employees. It's a good idea.

The 'excluded' staff? It's trickier, but constant emails expecting responses at 5 in the morning are a good indication that you might want to keep your options open....
 

MJP

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SupersonicMax said:
I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

I see your point and the occasional use of my personal device is not the hill I am going to die on.

In the private sector those same companies that expect pers to use personal devices also provide a benefit for that usage as well. As an anecdotal example I am aware of a security company that has an app that their guards use on their personal phones for check ins and other things related to their job and they reimburses the employees for the usage of their own phones to a certain degree each month. Companies also have no issues signing T2200s for their employees to be able to deduct employment expenses, trying to get the same from DND/CAF next to impossible (although it may change this year given the situation).
 
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