• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
112
Points
710
If first new RCAF fighters might now not be delivered until 2026 ( https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/120786/post-1512082.html#msg1512082 ) will Eurofighter (or Super Hornet) still be in production to deliver then?

Canada's swipe at Boeing jets could open way for European rivals

Canada’s decision to shun Boeing Co (BA.N) jets could open the way for European rivals seeking to supply new fighters, assuming the government can sort out major procurement challenges, three sources familiar with the matter said on Wednesday.

Canada is scrapping a plan to buy 18 Boeing Super Hornet planes and will instead opt for a second-hand fleet of Australian jets, sources told Reuters on Tuesday.

Boeing’s future military sales in Canada are in question after the U.S. defense firm launched a trade challenge against Canadian planemaker Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO).

But - in what the sources said was a worst-case scenario - a government angry at Boeing and unconvinced by other U.S. options may end up facing off against a Canadian air force that dislikes the idea of a European jet.

“This is a real mess,” said one person familiar with official procurement policy...

Canadian defense sources say the air force - seeking to maintain close ties with its U.S. counterpart - has long preferred a U.S. jet, which would narrow the race to the Super Hornet or Lockheed Martin Corp’s (LMT.N) F-35 stealth fighter.

But Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is not a fan of the F-35 and the Boeing spat means officials are prepared to look at rivals such as the Eurofighter Typhoon (AIR.PA) (BAES.L) (LDOF.MI) and Dassault Aviation SA’s (AVMD.PA) Rafale jet, say the sources, who asked to remain anonymous given the sensitivity of the situation...

If Canada went for the Typhoon or the Rafale, it would have to decide whether to use U.S. weapons or buy European armaments systems and integrate them with those used by U.S. forces.

An added complication is that the United States and Canada belong to an elite intelligence-sharing network and it is unclear if they would allow Europeans to access sensitive data.

One defense expert noted that Britain, Germany and Italy intend to operate both the F-35 and the Eurofighter, evidence that Canada could buy the European jet and still operate with U.S. air force F-35s.

Although Canada will extend the lifespan of some CF-18s to 2025 to cover the introduction of the new fighters, Canadian Global Affairs Institute defense analyst David Perry on Wednesday predicted Ottawa would keep the old planes in service for longer than planned and drag out the competition.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-boeing-fighterjets-future/canadas-swipe-at-boeing-jets-could-open-way-for-european-rivals-idUSKBN1E02T0

Mark
Ottawa
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
3,314
Points
1,090
Read as Canada buy's Australian spare parts, while continuing to dither on actual replacement
 

Retired AF Guy

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
150
Points
710
Colin P said:
Yes but it moves the decision point into another election cycle, therefore no longer the problem for this current government.

Funny you should mention a delay.

Feds planning to push back delivery date for new fighter jets: sources
By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press — Dec 6 2017

OTTAWA — The Royal Canadian Air Force may have to keep its aging CF-18s airborne even longer than already expected after industry sources warned Wednesday that the Trudeau government is planning to push back the delivery date for its new fleet of fighters.

Word of the likely delay comes with the government moving ahead with the purchase of used fighter jets from Australia as a temporary stopgap alongside its existing CF-18s, rather than the original plan of buying brand new Super Hornets from U.S. aerospace giant Boeing Co.

But the government is also wrestling with how best to sell Canadians on the idea of used jets, mindful of the disaster that followed the purchase of second-hand British submarines in the 1990s.

The Liberal government said last year that it planned to start receiving new fighter jets in about five years, or around 2021, at which point the phase-out of CF-18s was scheduled to begin.

But several sources told The Canadian Press on Wednesday that defence officials now don't expect the first of 88 new fighters to be delivered for another eight years, putting the new time frame around 2026.

The sources, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, would not speculate on why the delivery schedule was being changed.

But the decision could have major financial implications if it means having to sink even more money into the CF-18s to keep them in service longer than planned.

National Defence had already planned to spend up to $500 million to keep its 76 CF-18s flying to 2025, but previous estimates have said extending past that date would be very expensive.

Some are also wondering whether the Liberals, who promised to launch a formal fighter-jet competition to replace the CF-18s before the 2019 election, now plan to hold off until after Canadians go to the polls.

Retired military officers and defence experts alike say a competition, which latest estimates say would be worth up to $19 billion, could be launched right away, and urged the Liberals to take that step, rather than waiting several more years.

"If they had launched a competition last year, we could already be getting on with it," said Alan Williams, who previously served as head of military procurement at the Department of National Defence.

"Even today, it could be started."

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan would not comment Wednesday on when the competition would be launched, saying only that it would be announced "at the appropriate time."

In the meantime, government and industry sources say the Liberals have settled on buying Australia's used jets from Australia. The original plan to buy 18 Super Hornets, at an estimated cost of $6 billion, was scuttled after Boeing triggered a bitter trade dispute with Montreal-based rival Bombardier earlier this year.

The Australian plan does have its advantages. The aircraft will almost certainly be cheaper than the Super Hornets, and easier to incorporate into Canada's existing fleet, since they are nearly identical to the CF-18, and won't require new training or infrastructure.

But the Australian jets are 30 years old — the same vintage as the CF-18s — and sources say the government is concerned about resurrecting memories of the four second-hand subs Canada bought from the U.K. One of those vessels, HMCS Chicoutimi, caught fire while crossing the Atlantic in 2004, killing a naval officer and injuring nine other sailors.

Billions of dollars have also been sunk into the vessels over the years to address a multitude of technical problems, which has kept them docked more often than they have been at sea.

During question period Wednesday, Conservative MP Tony Clement called on the Liberals to abandon the "rusted out" Australian "bucket of bolts" and hold an immediate competition to replace the CF-18s.

The Australian planes come with another built-in advantage, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute: Canada has long since learned how to keep them in service.

"We've proven to be very good, out of necessity, at keeping them flying for quite some period of time, whereas the Upholder class of submarines were totally unique. Canada hadn't operated them," Perry said.

"But at the end of the day, when you're buying heavily used, 30-year-old aircraft, you're buying heavily used 30-year-old aircraft."

— Follow @leeberthiaume on Twitter

Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press

Article Link
 

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
112
Points
710
New RCAF fighter procurement, or, CharlieFoxtrot to the max--guilty men on both sides.  Stephen Harper's nine-plus years' government (2006-2015) got nothing; now Justin Trudeau's may take eleven years for first plane, so two decades!?! Two world wars times two. Good flipping Canadian political grief.

Mark
Ottawa
 

PuckChaser

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Mentor
Reaction score
1,399
Points
1,060
Problem is, they didn't have to start the program from scratch. They could have just run a competition that they promised to do, less than 2 years into their mandate and had a contract awarded prior to the election. Instead, we restarted a glacial military procurement system and may end up with only 1 or 2 bidders. Super Hornet line is on life support, along with other older aircraft.  Who knows if Typhoon will even be available 8 years from now, F35 is going to kill that program off too.
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,383
Points
1,010
BurnDoctor said:
Pure idiocy. That is all.

It’s worse than that. It’s a PET legacy.  To Destroy the Canadian military was an intended aim of PET and now JT is seeing his dear father’s plan through.
I fear it is too late to stop him and his brethren.
 

Eye In The Sky

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,544
Points
940
Hamish Seggie said:
I fear it is too late to stop him and his brethren.

This might be the 'quiet reality' to some of us who are getting grey up top.  I've heard a few "well, at least I'll have my pension" comments in the past few years...

 

a_majoor

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
30
Points
560
Another reason for the Liberals to avoid the F-35: it could conceivably be part pf a Ballistic Missile Defense system (full article requires subscription):

http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35s-could-shoot-down-north-korean-missiles?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20171205_AW-05_735&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000002349694&utm_campaign=12864&utm_medium=email&elq2=ab4ce1445a3340aaaaafbcb1b5452bac

F-35s Could Shoot Down North Korean Missiles
Dec 4, 2017 James Drew | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Most of North Korea's missile sites are within range of Lockheed Martin F-35s that are equipped with the Raytheon AIM-120 Amraam: U.S. Air Force

Imagine if seconds after North Korea’s Hwasong-15 intercontinental ballistic missile lifted off on Nov. 28, a Lockheed Martin F-35 armed with four Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (Amraams) engaged the missile and destroyed ...

Maybe not as sexy as a 747 armed with a megawatt laser, but certainly more practical.
 

Quirky

Sr. Member
Reaction score
623
Points
940
Not sure what's more idiotic, the Canadian procurement system or the pilots who keep signing up to fly these rust buckets. Who in their right mind would want to fly a fighter jet older than they are. I refuse to fly back seat.
 

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
112
Points
710
More--note "list of pre-qualified bidders":

Liberals set to announce fighter jet competition, purchase of used Aussie jets next week
Conservatives describe Australian fighter jet purchase akin to buying a 'bucket of bolts'

The Liberal government intends to announce the "launch" of its long-awaited competition to replace the air force's aging CF-18s next week — at the same time it unveils a plan to buy used Australian jet fighters as stop-gap measure, CBC News has learned.

Multiple government and industry sources say what the public will see is the first step "in a long road" toward the issuing of a formal tender in early 2019 and the eventual acquisition of brand new warplanes by the mid-2020s.

Significantly, from a political perspective, the government is considering ripping a page out of its recent warship-building playbook and establishing a list of pre-qualified bidders, said a source familiar with the file, but who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

A final decision on whether to take that step has not been made, but it would potentially give the Liberals ongoing leverage in nasty trade disputes, like the one between Boeing and Bombardier...

Getting the full competition underway would please the commander of the air force, who, in a sit-down interview with CBC News on Wednesday, said the sooner it gets underway, the better.

"Can we do it faster? That would be the challenge I would give my colleagues across government," said Lt.-Gen. Mike Hood.

"I'm ready to take it on faster, but I also recognize the government's process requirements for an open and transparent competition. They've stated it very publicly and I am supportive of their view to take that way. I just want it to go faster."...

Next week's announcement is not only expected to lay out the process for acquiring new jets, but set down a framework for consultation with both "industry and foreign governments."

That is a crucial aspect because of the sometimes bruising backroom battles that went on over the navy's $60 billion frigate replacement program. Federal procurement officials on that file were surprised to find foreign governments balking at sharing top secret schematics for weapons systems...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/australia-fighter-jets-competition-1.4436680

Mark
Ottawa
 

Oldgateboatdriver

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
308
Points
880
Pre-qualified bidders?

There are only five corporations in the world that build these things !!!!

And we all know who they are and what product they sell.

Talk about fiddling with process just to drag your feet and avoid breaking stupid promises you made in ignorance during an election cycle.
 

Rifleman62

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
70
Points
530
Me:
The Defence of Canada and it's citizens is too important to be determined by politics of the LPC.

If it's citizens care (until it's too late).

If the fighter procurement/cannibalization of used A/C 30+ years old gets more farcical, if that is even possible, why doesn't someone responsible to execute the Defence of Canada call the government out?

Eye in the Sky:
This might be the 'quiet reality' to some of us who are getting grey up top.  I've heard a few "well, at least I'll have my pension" comments in the past few years...

There is always hope the US will shitcan the Aus deal.
 

ringo

Member
Reaction score
4
Points
180
If Australia moves towards an all F35 fleet, Canada could buy used Australian Super Hornets 24 F and 12 G models in RAAF service.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
308
Points
880
MilEME09 said:
I hope to god they do, it will force them to run the competition

Nothing will force them to run anything if they don't want to. They'll simply find another excuse scheme, with the assistance of civil servants just too happy to help the Libs and who will never have to face an armed enemy in their whole life.

And don't count on the Canadian population to pressure them : As we all know the population is generally ignorant, and blissfully so, of Canadian Defence matter and couldn't care less.

The Federal government gets more pressure on matters of defence from our allies than from the whole electorate combined.
 

observor 69

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3
Points
430
Quirky said:
Not sure what's more idiotic, the Canadian procurement system or the pilots who keep signing up to fly these rust buckets. Who in their right mind would want to fly fighter jet older than they are. I refuse to fly back seat.

I'll take it.  :nod:
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,383
Points
1,010
OGBD you’ve said it well. We’ve seen government change the rules several times when they don’t get the answer they want.
 

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
112
Points
710
Keep in mind that new RCAF fighter, er, studies have already been done--first under the Conservatives and then under the Liberals:

1) Conservatives:

F-35: Canadian Fighter Review Ends, Danish One Starts
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/mark-collins-f-35-canadian-fighter-review-ends-danish-one-starts


Danes have already selected F-35; selection was lengthy process overall but eventual competition took some two years; it appears Liberals only intend to start ours in 2019 after next election.  Quelle surprise:
https://breakingdefense.com/2016/05/f-35-wins-denmark-competition-trounces-super-hornet-eurofighter/

2) Liberals:

New RCAF Fighter: Consult, Consult, Consult (with industry)–Why Not Just Compete?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/mark-collins-new-rcaf-fighter-consult-consult-consult-with-industry-why-not-just-compete/

This forever fighter farce, first under Harper and now under Trudeau, really does suggest Canada is not a serious country.  What our allies and friends must think knows only God.  Does the tolerance of our GoFos have any limits?  One understands a motivation not to make things even worse for the CAF by keeping essentially mum in the face of the political ....show, but how much worse do things need to get (cf. shipbuilding, Africa peacekeeping nonsense, whatever)?

Mark
Ottawa

 

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
112
Points
710
Looks like some serious work preparing for eventual competition may start fairly soon:

Boeing ready to throw in towel on Canadian interim fighter purchase

...the Liberal government intends next week to announce the beginning of the competition to replace the entire existing fleet of CF-18s.

Earlier this week sources told CBC News the expected announcement will lay out a roadmap towards the planned tender call in 2019.

Significantly, the government is expected to use that period to not only consult with industry but develop a list of pre-qualified bidders.

Aside from weeding out companies that clearly don't meet the criteria, such a list could also be used as leverage on the trade front...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/superhornet-sale-dead-1.4439612

Mark
Ottawa
 
Top