The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[PuckChaser]

Just need to get rid of Gripen and we'll be able to buy an aircraft on an established assembly line instead of some stupid technology transfer deal that'll cost billions.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Dimsum--note my italicized comment that perhaps--others would know much more than I--that Gripen E may be more US-compatible.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

This may have had something to do with it as well.

Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and the UK will all now be flying F35s.  As will Italy.

Germany would as well if it weren't stuck providing Napoleon with the horse to ride. 

As it stands Dassault doesn't really have a viable market - and Canada's 65-83 would not change that.

Belgium's purchase of US-made F35 jets 'against European interests', Macron says

Latest update : 2018-10-26

French President Emmanuel Macron on Friday criticised Belgium's decision to buy US-made F-35 fighter jets instead of European planes, saying that "strategically it goes against European interests".
The Belgian government announced Thursday that it would replace a fleet of ageing F-16 jets with the F-35 made by Lockheed Martin, rejecting rival offers to buy Eurofighter Typhoons or Rafales from the French group Dassault.

"The decision was linked to a Belgian procedure and the country's political constraints, but strategically it goes against European interests," Macron told journalists during a visit to Bratislava.

"Europe won't be strong unless it is truly sovereign and knows how to protect itself," he said, citing a need to develop "a genuine European defence capacity".

https://www.france24.com/en/20181026-france-belgium-aviation-macron-purchase-usa-f35-jets-eurofighter

France still wants Europe to march to Napoleon's drum.

 

[vonGarvin]

Germany would as well if it weren't stuck providing Napoleon with the horse to ride. 

:rofl:

 

[OldSolduer]

And Dassault has pulled out of the competition now.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think it's unfortunate that the Rafale is out, I think it would have up the bar and forced the US companies to sharpen their pencils a bit more.

 

[STONEY]

I am surprised that more do not refuse to spend millions putting together a bid that has little or no chance of being successful trying to deal with Canadian
bureaucrats.  There is only 1 possibly 2 that stand a chance of a successful bid but stranger things have happened after all the Army is getting Mack trucks when no
other western Army's or allies have them.

 

[CBH99]

It's unfortunate Dassault pulled the Rafale out - great aircraft, and definitely worth being in the competition even if not the winner.  Twin engined for all of those who care, good range, highly advanced, a very generous IRB package offered, full technology transfer, and manufactured in Canada.  What the hell else could they have done, really??

If the 5 Eyes argument is the real reason why, it would have been preferable to see SAAB pull out.  I've seen Gripens up close, and they are SMALL airplanes - which while I'm totally out of my lane here, I'm thinking we would need something more rugged & greater range given the huge distances the RCAF patrols. 


I agree with STONEY.  Until a Government of Canada says "We are running a competition, these are the requirements, and we will be announcing a winner on Date X" - I wouldn't even bother putting together a bid.  Millions spent on PR, lobbying, marketing, trade shows, industry consultations, and actually partnering with local businesses in Canada to make the bid more attractive - only to have the government change it's mine...AGAIN...REPEATEDLY...

 

[MarkOttawa]

Auditor General's damning report, note personnel shortages, will still be unable to fill NORAD/NATO "capability gap", plus fighters' ever-less capable over time:

1) (Brief) Report 3—Canada’s Fighter Force—National Defence
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/att__e_43225.html

2) (Full) Report 3—Canada’s Fighter Force—National Defence
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201811_03_e_43201.html#hd4a

Mark
Ottawa

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe they Best Buy Sopwith Camels. What a circus

 

[MarkOttawa]

Early news stories:

Canada’s jets don’t meet international obligations: Auditor-General
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadas-jets-dont-meet-international-obligations-auditor-general/

Auditor general trashes Liberal plan to keep CF-18s flying until 2032
Fighter pilots, technicians are in short supply for Canada's fighter jets
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ag-cf-18s-1.4912813

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

F-35 keeps getting cheaper and cheaper. New contract awarded to Lockheed Martin worth $22.7B USD for 255 aircraft (all variants).

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/11/19/lockheed-martin-lands-255-jet-fighter-order-worth.aspx

In a mammoth deal announced Wednesday, the Pentagon awarded Lockheed a contract to sell 255 new F-35 fighter jets for $22.7 billion -- $89 million per plane averaged across all three models. These will include:

64 F-35A conventional takeoff and landing fighters for the U.S. Air Force.
26 short takeoff/vertical landing F-35Bs for the U.S. Marine Corps.
16 carrier-variant F-35Cs for the U.S. Navy.
131 F-35As and 18 F-35 Bs to be delivered to U.S. allies abroad.
...
Speaking of savings, though, you may be wondering: If Lockheed Martin charged $89 million for an F-35A two months ago, and if this week's $22.7 billion deal also works out to $89 million per plane, then where are the savings?

The answer is a bit complex. For one thing, in the September contract, $89 million referred to  the "F-35A unit price including aircraft, engine, and fee." That's how a deal that actually averaged "$81.6 million" per plane ended up costing the Pentagon $89 million, $107.7 million, and $115.5 million, respectively, for individual F-35 variants.

For reference, $89M USD is $117.94M CAD at today's exchange rate. With $9B CAD, we can buy roughly 75 aircraft (not including parts, training, etc), and the flyaway price keeps falling as production ramps up. There's also no FMS surcharge on F-35 (unless the Trump administration has changed that).

 

[MarkOttawa]

Video of MND Sajjan defending government's handling of CF-18 fleet, replacement after AG's report:
https://youtu.be/nE_blpZ4xic

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Video of MND Sajjan defending government's handling of CF-18 fleet, replacement after AG's report:
https://youtu.be/nE_blpZ4xic

Mark
Ottawa

Warning:  This video will exceed your annual saccharine dosage allowance after five seconds.  Proceed with caution.

 

[observor 69]

I thought with his background we would be getting something different.
Nope, just another politician.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Even if he wanted to, he is still constrained by his fellow members in Cabinet and must play along. I get a feeling that his sense of loyalty to his party is to strong.

 

[FSTO]

I thought with his background we would be getting something different.
Nope, just another politician.

I think that any former member of the military is a poor choice for Defence Minister. Try as they might, all of us in the CAF are shaped by our respective tribes and it takes quite a strong person to assume that god like view that the Minister requires to manage this department.

The current minister loses all credibility with me when he barely gets into his talking points and he is blaming the former government.
If I had the chance my first question to him would have been "Why hasn't the competition for a replacement aircraft started yet? You are at year 3 of your mandate, what's the hold-up?"

 

[Journeyman]

The current minister loses all credibility with me when he barely gets into his talking points and he is blaming the former government.

A couple of points:

At least he's allowed to once again speak on behalf of the Department;  there was a time when he wasn't allowed to speak unless he had Marc Garneau standing within arms' reach.  Of course, at that time, there was talk that he would be moved in the next Cabinet shuffle... before it was reaffirmed that the ruling government views Defence as a meaningless Cabinet position, so he was left in location.  I guess he's learned not to stray from the approved text. 

Which suggests that "blame previous government" was the extent of his assigned talking points.  Maybe that shouldn't be surprising, given that that seems to be the extent of 'informed discussion' within several governments, as well as with some discussants here.

 

[Dale Denton]

I remember thinking Leslie was a shoe-in for MND when this gov't won.

How would he have been any different, or would he have pushed through his reorganization re:top heavy?

Its a shame current MND doesn't want to call out his own gov't for the sake of his former coworkers. He had the credibility to make positive changes, but perhaps PMO didnt want to listen to him. But in that case he should have spoken out and been a better CAF representative, now his background might as well have been in finance by the way he sounds. Did they 'beat' the initiative/passion for change out of him?

How would have a MND with a civilian-only background done anything more party-friendly?

 

[OldSolduer]

I think Mr. Campbell is the man to ask. He knows how the system works much better than I. I will venture a guess on why Leslie is not the MND: too many former officers who don’t particularly care for him. That’s my view and it could be incorrect.