The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Quirky]

The Block III is "stealthier" than previous F/A-18s. How much more and how effective is the question...

Also, how much stealth does the F-35 sacrifice when it does carry weapons externally? And if the F-35 got noticed or engaged, would it be able to put up a fight?

I listened to a podcast called "The Fighter Pilot Podcast" and the host Vincent Aiello (retired Navy F/A-18 pilot) interviewed an F-35 pilot who talked about the jet open and honestly. Because of the design of the aircraft for it's stealth capabilities meant they had to shape and size things a certain way. Because of this, when the F-35 went toe-to-toe with 4th-Gen Fighter Jets, it didn't measure up the best. If the F-35 is never spotted, terrific. But as soon as it's spotted and say it uses it's 4 to 6 missiles in "stealth-mode", not very good  :not-again:

And by the internal weapon bay being limited, it can carry either; a) 4x AIM-120 or b) 2x AIM-120 with 2x JDAM.

Obvious choice? Maybe not... poor choice of wording on my part. And yes, regardless of which aircraft the RCAF recieves, there will be training and logistical changes, but the changes to an F-35 will be more of a change. Although, now I wouldn't use this point as an argument anymore. In the grand scheme of things this greater change in training and logistics is a small price to pay.

Hmm... after some further reading, if you want Stealth ability, you can have it. If you want "beast mode" you can have it too. Maybe have a couple F-35s penetrate defenses in stealth mode and a couple further out in "beast-mode".

Another questions... if Canada does go ahead with the F-35, do you think the B variant (STOVL) is the appropriate choice? Or would the A variant (CTOL) be a better option. Doesn't the F-35A have more range?

You are asking questions that have been beaten to death on this forum and this tread. The answers are there if you search for them.

Furthermore, the F-35 will be the obvious choice considering the international partners already flying it, operationally in some cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Operators What will the super hornet support look like in 20, 30, 40 years? We would be the only country still flying the things. The only reason why Canada hasn't bought them is politics, that's it. The RCAF already chose the F35 years ago.

 

[CBH99]

Two quick things...


1.  Drallib, it's nice to have a new member on the forum actively engaging in current military matters. 

Some of us have been here for a decade or so, and we get used to pounding each other if we bring up things that have been brought up many times in the past, we sometimes forget it's good to have new members here and engaging.  Glad your here 



2.  Part of the appeal of the F-35 is the international logistics chain.  When engaging in operations and you have F-35's from say 6 different countries all operating together, it makes maintenance & spare parts a lot easier. 

If your a country that is the only country flying Plane X, and everybody else at the show is flying Plane Y - it can just make maintenance more tricky and costly.  By having everybody more or less using the same gear, it makes things easier.  (Obviously some risks there too)





Best plane for our needs?  Solid arguments for and against, and the points you bring up aren't invalid. 

However, after everything is considered, every single country that has been presented with the classified info about the F-35 have chosen the F-35.  And with the costs coming down to be comparable to the latest updated Gen 4 fighters, it's no longer cost prohibitive like it was a few years ago.


(I too listen to the Fighter Pilot Podcast and know the episode your referring to) - always interesting things to be taken away from that show.  The episode on the Rafale I found pretty interesting - absolutely a solid little beast of a jet

 

[LiveFightMove]

CBH99,

Thanks for the reply! I was actually thinking "oh man...I gotta read through over 100 pages before my next thought" but I will try and search for previous comments/thoughts before making more posts in the future.

I keep going back and forth personally on the F-35 and the Block III Super Hornet. Even the SAAB Gripen is making an impression on me!

Whoever Canada awards the contract to, I'll be happy with. I do think it's appealing having the same airframe with other nations and allies.


Drallib

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Throwing the current boxes into the bin, if we went F35, Canada could also contribute to a F35B buy To help equip the UK new carriers, along with a couple of like minded nations (5-6 each) and provide maintainers and pilots for the multi-national Squadron as a way to boot NATO and the Commonwealths ability to counter threats. Working on new aircraft in an challenging, interesting, multi-national environment might actually help the retention issues. After all one can only put up with some much BS, when one know that the government is committed to doing nothing and the planes get older and older...

Of course the above would require a completely new government and some very interesting use agreements, but can be done. Now to go on ebay and find some unicorns...

 

[MilEME09]

Throwing the current boxes into the bin, if we went F35, Canada could also contribute to a F35B buy To help equip the UK new carriers, along with a couple of like minded nations (5-6 each) and provide maintainers and pilots for the multi-national Squadron as a way to boot NATO and the Commonwealths ability to counter threats. Working on new aircraft in an challenging, interesting, multi-national environment might actually help the retention issues. After all one can only put up with some much BS, when one know that the government is committed to doing nothing and the planes get older and older...

Of course the above would require a completely new government and some very interesting use agreements, but can be done. Now to go on ebay and find some unicorns...

We have done it in the past in war time, might take some negotiation and a commitment as to how often we rotate onto the carrier. It would also require additional aircraft, say two squadrons worth to rotate onto the carrier. It would also bring a skill set into the RCAF we do not have,and give us a smaller training delta if we say ever got our own carrier.

 

[Dale Denton]

Throwing the current boxes into the bin, if we went F35, Canada could also contribute to a F35B buy To help equip the UK new carriers, along with a couple of like minded nations (5-6 each) and provide maintainers and pilots for the multi-national Squadron as a way to boot NATO and the Commonwealths ability to counter threats.

Was this explored when we first bought the Hornets?

I'm not gonna entertain myself with the "one day we'll get a CVN", but would it be worth it to buy more expensive 35Bs, contribute many of them elsewhere and provide the bodies to the QE Class? Would be great if we had our CSC/Type 26 in a UK Carrier Group working under cover of RCAF F-35Bs.

 

[Quirky]

Even the SAAB Gripen is making an impression on me!

The Gripen is a toy airplane that no one is buying and arguably a step back from our current CF-18s. It's a small, yet somehow heavy, under-powered 4th gen aircraft that's still a decade away from any sort of operational flights. SAAB will likely drop out of the competition or just claim that the requirements are rigged to favour the eventual winner and fighter everyone wants.

Throwing the current boxes into the bin, if we went F35, Canada could also contribute to a F35B buy To help equip the UK new carriers, along with a couple of like minded nations (5-6 each) and provide maintainers and pilots for the multi-national Squadron

Oh boy, and I thought Cold Lake was bad, how does a 6 month boat ride on the HMS Prince Harry sound?  :boke:

 

[Baz]

Oh boy, and I thought Cold Lake was bad, how does a 6 month boat ride on the HMS Prince Harry sound?  :boke:

Better than 6 months on a Frigate... maybe.

 

[LiveFightMove]

The Gripen is a toy airplane that no one is buying and arguably a step back from our current CF-18s. It's a small, yet somehow heavy, under-powered 4th gen aircraft that's still a decade away from any sort of operational flights. SAAB will likely drop out of the competition or just claim that the requirements are rigged to favour the eventual winner and fighter everyone wants.

I just spent some time going through this entire thread reading up the information already shared, and I have to agree with you. I was okay with the Gripen. I was hoping for the Block III Super Hornet. But now I really hope Canada goes with the F-35A (which I now know is the variant in the competition from someone sharing a Skies Magazine article).

 

[CBH99]

The Gripen isn't a bad plane, and the new E/F models have some pretty impressive features. 

It's a good plane for Sweden for sure, as it's locally produced from the ground up, doesn't need much range to whip around Swedish airspace, affordable, supports the local economy, and can take advantage of Swedish infrastructure and geography.



That being said, it really isn't the right plane for Canada at all, for quite a few obvious reasons. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Throwing the current boxes into the bin, if we went F35, Canada could also contribute to a F35B buy To help equip the UK new carriers, along with a couple of like minded nations (5-6 each) and provide maintainers and pilots for the multi-national Squadron as a way to boot NATO and the Commonwealths ability to counter threats. Working on new aircraft in an challenging, interesting, multi-national environment might actually help the retention issues. After all one can only put up with some much BS, when one know that the government is committed to doing nothing and the planes get older and older...

Of course the above would require a completely new government and some very interesting use agreements, but can be done. Now to go on ebay and find some unicorns...

Why not set up an Air Force PMC, you know, like 'Blackwater Top Gun'?

Provinces like BC already contract a huge air force during fire season then, when the summer goes 'down under', so do the contractors.

For a retainer of a few $ Billion the highest bidder gets exactly the airforce it wants, as and when needed, without all the attendant hassles of having to manage yucky things like 'people' and 'logistics' and other fixed & variable costs (like 5* hotel bills ).

 

[Rifleman62]

Why not set up an Air Force PMC, you know, like 'Blackwater Top Gun'?

Provinces like BC already contract a huge air force during fire season then, when the summer goes 'down under', so do the contractors.

For a retainer of a few $ Billion the highest bidder gets exactly the airforce it wants, as and when needed, without all the attendant hassles of having to manage yucky things like 'people' and 'logistics' and other fixed & variable costs (like 5* hotel bills ).

Why? How much has the USAF been charging us for decades and decades?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Why not set up an Air Force PMC, you know, like 'Blackwater Top Gun'?

Provinces like BC already contract a huge air force during fire season then, when the summer goes 'down under', so do the contractors.

For a retainer of a few $ Billion the highest bidder gets exactly the airforce it wants, as and when needed, without all the attendant hassles of having to manage yucky things like 'people' and 'logistics' and other fixed & variable costs (like 5* hotel bills ).

We more or less did that with the Royal Navy prior to WWI and they took all the cruisers out of Esquimalt at the beginning of the war, forcing our premier to start his own navy.

 

[LiveFightMove]

Why not set up an Air Force PMC, you know, like 'Blackwater Top Gun'?

What's an Air Force PMC?

 

[FSTO]

Oh boy, and I thought Cold Lake was bad, how does a 6 month boat ride on the HMS Prince Harry sound?  :boke:

Well you get exotic port visits every 2 weeks, cruise liner like stability in most sea states, and booze. What's not to like?

 

[dapaterson]

What's an Air Force PMC?

PMC = Private Military Company (like Blackwater)

 

[LiveFightMove]

Well you get exotic port visits every 2 weeks, cruise liner like stability in most sea states, and booze. What's not to like?

"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Getting back on topic, if Canada goes with the F-35A and later on the idea of deploying on another allies' Aircraft Carrier, then perhaps develping F-35B/Cs is likely. I would like to see Canada aquire Aircraft Carriers eventually.

 

[Good2Golf]

On order right after nuke subs...

 

[Baz]

On order right after nuke subs...

... and then we're going to knit sailors and airmen to man it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

... and then we're going to knit sailors and airmen to man it.

I've heard others state similar things - lack of sailors/airmen.  Is this because the intake process is long, convoluted and broken or is this because the overall compensation is lacking.  Is it because of a very small number being allowed to be accepted yearly.  What is the overall issue or issues?