The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[OldSolduer]

If we want to build a domestic fighter production capability, then try to get in big with a multinational 6th gen program. Let’s not pretend we could meaningfully and viably go it alone on this one.

Agreed.

Which is exactly why, many many years ago, Canada bought into the 5th Gen program that resulted in the F-35...Kind of.....still unsure

FTFY

 

[Furniture]

Unless one accepts that you don’t have to be ITAR-controlled to be interoperable (as with Rafale on CVNs) with the US…far more interoperable than Canada’s existing legacy CF-18 fleet for example, how great would that be!

You'll get no argument from me, I was just thinking in terms of the reality that our MPA, and tactical airlift are both full of ITAR kit, as are our ships and I presume land systems.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Dude,

The berlin wall came down, Canada was already luke warm on defence spending.

The Yugo Wars didn't make us take defence seriously. Neither did Somalia, 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, ISIS, Libya, The Russian Ukraine war. We have already been in a multi-decade of tension.

The cold war was a multi-decade existential threat to the global world order, and indeed life as people knew it. With the exception of downstream implications from Russia/Ukraine -none of the events listed compare to prospect of WW3 that the cold war offered, none had direct major direct implications for Canadian sovereignty or our way of life. They were fundamentally different time periods, and our defense spend reflected that. (Both were too low for their time).

Our spending waxed and waned through those cold war decades, but we maintained a significantly larger and more capable (relative to the time period) force. We put out multiple classes of destroyers, and the industry was left in a position to bring a world class frigate in the Halifax. We operated multiple fleets of fighters, some of which were license built in Canada. The low water mark was 1.7% GDP, and much of it was spent above 2. Since 95 the average has been like 1.2, with a high water mark of 1.4.

You can't "Dude" your into implying that Canada didn't treat defense differently through the cold war vs after.

What makes you think anything is going to change with Canadian attitudes?

I don't expect anything to change with respect to attitudes, I expect a repeat of history where we see a grudgingly increased spend (probably still not high enough) in reaction to the geopolitical requirements of the time. That increase requires an absolute shit tonne of money be spent. Theory: the more of that money is spent (fruitfully) in Canada, the less grudging it will be- and the better we will be for it long term.

It wholly depends on whether this is a blip or if we've entered into another cold war esque period. Global/European sentiment tends toward the latter, but only time will tell.

 

[Good2Golf]

You'll get no argument from me, I was just thinking in terms of the reality that our MPA, and tactical airlift are both full of ITAR kit, as are our ships and I presume land systems.

And I appreciate that we have a lot of ITAR bits, but also thinks that we don’t have to emotionally bias to US/ITSR gear just because of our current holdings. Interoperability in many cases comes in procedures and waveforms.

 

[Furniture]

Interoperability in many cases comes in procedures and waveforms.

According to the RCAF and F-35 lobbyists we can't work in NORAD without American kit... Or at least that's the impression they have been working hard to make.

 

[YZT580]

The cold war was a multi-decade existential threat to the global world order, and indeed life as people knew it. With the exception of downstream implications from Russia/Ukraine -none of the events listed compare to prospect of WW3 that the cold war offered, none had direct major direct implications for Canadian sovereignty or our way of life. They were fundamentally different time periods, and our defense spend reflected that. Both were too low.

Our spending waxed and waned through those cold war decades, but we maintained a significantly larger and more capable (relative to the time period) force. We put out multiple classes of destroyers, and the industry was left in a position to bring a world class frigate in the Halifax. We operated multiple fleets of fighters, some of which were license built in Canada. The low water mark was 1.7% GDP, and much of it was spent above 2. Since 95 the average has been like 1.2, with a high water mark of 1.4.

You can't "Dude" your into implying that Canada didn't treat defense differently through the cold war vs after.



I don't expect anything to change with respect to attitudes, I expect a repeat of history where we see a grudgingly increased spend (probably still not high enough) in reaction to the geopolitical requirements of the time. That increase requires an absolute shit tonne of money be spent.

It wholly depends on whether this is a blip or if we've entered into another cold war esque period. Global/European sentiment tends toward the latter, but only time will tell.

Trudeau senior hated the military and all it stood for. He cut where ever he could, and gathered people around him who thought the same, thus his successors in the liberal party followed suit. It isn't being honest imho to affix the blame to the average Canadian. They were bought off by promises of free health care and the peacekeeper syndrome that said we didn't need an army as much as a constabulary. The quick sand that was Viet Nam certainly didn't help people's attitude towards things military either. Mulroney was right up there as well as he was pm when we left Europe so this is not a condemnation of the liberals so much as it is the government who chose to buy votes rather than buy defense. I think citizens of every country are basically sheep. In spite of significant evidence to the contrary they believe that the government knows best. Bread and games has been a sound principle for maintaining control since at least the Roman era.

 

[Good2Golf]

According to the RCAF and F-35 lobbyists we can't work in NORAD without American kit... Or at least that's the impression they have been working hard to make.

Funny how the Rafale’s Link-16/JTIDS/MIDS/Tadil-J allowed it to interoperate with the USN. Equally strange that go years and years, when the CF-18s only had ARC-164 radios and no JTIDS, they still were okay for the NORAD mission.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Trudeau senior hated the military and all it stood for. He cut where ever he could, and gathered people around him who thought the same, thus his successors in the liberal party followed suit. It isn't being honest imho to affix the blame to the average Canadian. They were bought off by promises of free health care and the peacekeeper syndrome that said we didn't need an army as much as a constabulary. The quick sand that was Viet Nam certainly didn't help people's attitude towards things military either. Mulroney was right up there as well as he was pm when we left Europe so this is not a condemnation of the liberals so much as it is the government who chose to buy votes rather than buy defense. I think citizens of every country are basically sheep. In spite of significant evidence to the contrary they believe that the government knows best. Bread and games has been a sound principle for maintaining control since at least the Roman era.

To Mulroney's credit he did get the US (very very reluctantly) to say 'yes' to Canada acquiring up to a dozen nuclear submarines. It would have been interesting to see what may have occurred if the 'wall' didn't fall until 10-12yrs later and we already had 2-3 nuclear subs when it occurred.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Trudeau senior hated the military and all it stood for. He cut where ever he could, and gathered people around him who thought the same, thus his successors in the liberal party followed suit. It isn't being honest imho to affix the blame to the average Canadian.

And even then, with PET holding such an attitude- the realities of the time required his average defense spending to be at ~1.9% GDP, while under Harper we were ~1.2.

 

[markppcli]

Sure. I wont get stuck on the plane itself. I will leave that for SMEs. My intent is that I can see a role for lesser combat air craft too...

I would love to see us get some A10s.

We need a 10s like a hole in the head. Far to niche.

 

[ArmyRick]

You can't "Dude" your into implying that Canada didn't treat defense differently through the cold war vs after.

I joined 1990. Served until my release 2018. Pardon? I know Canada didn't take its defence seriously, I watched it first hand. Its called first hand experience, many here watched it as well. Not sure how you as a civilian sees it, I am telling you how myself and many of my peers watched it unfold.

The closest we got was the GWOT when they bought some kit for us.

That increase requires an absolute shit tonne of money be spent. Theory: the more of that money is spent (fruitfully) in Canada, the less grudging it will be- and the better we will be for it long term.

You really don't understand Bob from Toronto or Paul from Montreal. The minute the waters appear calm, spending on defence becomes as popular as a root canal.

Let me explain it to you another way. Defence spending is another political football. Thats it, and both the parties that have governed are guilty of it.

Even now, especially within the Liberals and probably more so the NDP, there are huge anti-military factions (anti-defence spending by default).

 

[NavyShooter]

Support for the Canadian military is a mile wide, and an inch deep, particularly on Remembrance day.

 

[GR66]

I wonder what support for the military was in 1913 or 1938? Events can change things.

 

[GR66]

The War Zone has just published the second part of its interview with Maj. Gen. Chris McKenna.

Canadian NORAD Commander On What It Will Take To Defend The High North

Maj. Gen. McKenna offers exclusive insights into the growing threats to the Arctic from China and Russia, and what NORAD is doing about it.

www.twz.com

And part 3 now published as well

Canadian NORAD Commander Explains Urgent Need For Better Sensing

Maj. Gen. Chris McKenna offers exclusive insights on the need for new satellites, airborne radar jets, and the drone threat.

www.twz.com

 

[Czech_pivo]

I joined 1990. Served until my release 2018. Pardon? I know Canada didn't take its defence seriously, I watched it first hand. Its called first hand experience, many here watched it as well. Not sure how you as a civilian sees it, I am telling you how myself and many of my peers watched it unfold.

The closest we got was the GWOT when they bought some kit for us.


You really don't understand Bob from Toronto or Paul from Montreal. The minute the waters appear calm, spending on defence becomes as popular as a root canal.

Let me explain it to you another way. Defence spending is another political football. Thats it, and both the parties that have governed are guilty of it.

Even now, especially within the Liberals and probably more so the NDP, there are huge anti-military factions (anti-defence spending by default).

Like it or not the significant union membership numbers in Canada has resulted in a portion of the population that is anti-military because they are anti-US.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I wonder what support for the military was in 1913 or 1938? Events can change things.

In 1939 a significant number jumped at the chance of food, clothing and a dry, warm place to sleep when joining the military.

 

[OldSolduer]

In 1939 a significant number jumped at the chance of food, clothing and a dry, warm place to sleep when joining the military.

McKenzie King - like PET - was no fan of military things probably because of WW1.

PET - well the less said about him...the better

 

[Czech_pivo]

McKenzie King - like PET - was no fan of military things probably because of WW1.

PET - well the less said about him...the better

I remember reading an article that I can no longer find, this was roughly 18-25yrs ago, that talked about some Jesuit lead/inspired youth group that PET was involved with that was anti-Jewish in Quebec during the war when he was in uni.
I went looking for it a few years back and wasn’t able to find it.

 

[DBNSG]

I joined 1990. Served until my release 2018. Pardon? I know Canada didn't take its defence seriously, I watched it first hand. Its called first hand experience, many here watched it as well. Not sure how you as a civilian sees it, I am telling you how myself and many of my peers watched it unfold.

The closest we got was the GWOT when they bought some kit for us.


You really don't understand Bob from Toronto or Paul from Montreal. The minute the waters appear calm, spending on defence becomes as popular as a root canal.

Let me explain it to you another way. Defence spending is another political football. Thats it, and both the parties that have governed are guilty of it.

Even now, especially within the Liberals and probably more so the NDP, there are huge anti-military factions (anti-defence spending by default).

While I think most of this comment is very true I have been astounded at the interest in Friends and Family about the F 35 choice.
I have had to have a few one way adult chats with the sudden couch airpower experts we now have in Canada. I have asked why they suddenly are Gripen fans when they did not give two flying hoots about the RCAF before Trump got elected. Digging down a little more with these sudden experts they all admit that in the end they don't know anything about Airforce things but its a quick , cheap, easy Fuck Trump move. Gee, just like their true feelings about defending Canada.

I do see a slight turn of the Ship of State as many folks that were comfortable and smug with the last 50 Years of being the Superior North American has these folks truly worried about our Future as an independent Nation but also a little guilty.
Guilty in that they voted for 5 Quebec based P.M.'s that did not really deliver in Mulroney or Martin and the other three that actively smothered or starved the institution while worried about Social justice garbage. Oh My, what a difference a year can make. I have had some fun with Liberal friends and commenters on Substack that are happy with Carney . They wail on about Poilivierre until I mention they elected a Conservative banker implementing a Conservative agenda. Funny how its all social justice for 50 Years until the Americans want the house keys.

Canadians at this time have the P.M. they want and the policies the Country needs. To quote Matt Gurney after a dinner with American Senators at the recent Halifax defence conference a European Officer stated "we will never fucking trust you again"
That sentiment is very much shared among most Canadians probably for a very long time. Our future Social justice might just have a rifle close by.

 

[Quirky]

While I think most of this comment is very true I have been astounded at the interest in Friends and Family about the F 35 choice.

It’s easy to become an expert on fighter jets - they’re the most visible piece of military hardware, be it at airshows, airports, movies, video games, etc. There isn’t anything else that gets so much media attention when it comes to procurement.

Our future Social justice might just have a rifle close by.

An issued rifle for everyone at a time when the government is taking them away from lawful owners? Highly unlikely. Lets start with giving every CAF member a personal sidearm of some type first.