The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

Perhaps better employment opportunities but the spouse would have to be functionally bilingual, particularly if in a trade or profession that is provincially regulated.

My brother and his wife are unilingual anglophone engineers. Both have jobs in Montreal. My SiL works for the space agency.

The idea that you'll be completely unemployed if you're not bilingual in Montreal. Nonsense. Harder market? Absolutely. But for any professional, Montreal will still be better than Cold Lake.

Also, the CAF does second language classes for spouses. Maybe they should expand those, given that they want to move us around?

 

[ytz]

I agree - but I’m thinking we should still purchase it. Our 18s are ancient and if we don’t replace them what’s the alternative?

I haven't called for cancellation here. Ever. But I think the folks who are single-mindedly committed to the F-35 are missing the moment and running the risk that the F-35 order is reduced with no second fleet or that we simply end up with Gripens instead of Panthers. I think it's better for the RCAF to get ahead of the conversation, understand the public's concerns and offer a compromise that works for us.

 

[Maxman1]

We'd end up with a USAF sized fighter wing, a lot more stability and the ability to pump out dets.

I'd modify your plan slightly. Keep Cold Lake. Only permanent units are training. All line squadrons in Mirabel. Close Bagotville or downgrade substantially to a station with no permanent units. Generate dets as needed to go anywhere in the country. Particularly up north.

Give single fighter pilots the dating pool and give married pilots the spousal employment pool of suburban Montreal and we might never have a single fighter pilot release before retirement again.

Maybe have a squadron in Toronto and Ottawa. Opens up massive opportunities in dating and spouse employment for Anglos.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Maybe have a squadron in Toronto and Ottawa. Opens up massive opportunities in dating and spouse employment for Anglos.

Who covers the coasts ? The USAF ?

 

[ytz]

Who covers the coasts ? The USAF ?

Sets. For a plan like this we end up creating dets that go out to the coasts, the Arctic, etc.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sets. For a plan like this we end up creating dets that go out to the coasts, the Arctic, etc.

A set = a packet of fighters satellite based elsewhere I presume ?

Does a set drag with them maintenance and logistics support ?

 

[YZT580]

Sets. For a plan like this we end up creating dets that go out to the coasts, the Arctic, etc.

as an individual who spent years working away from home base for extended periods I would not vote for this; particularly if there are children involved. Kids need dad/mom at home. We make a mistake by not providing for family life. It is one thing to disappear for 3 days 3X a month flying to Europe or where ever they can handle that but going for a month or more at a time ( and you would need to make it a month or the costs just in fuel and flying hours would be enormous) puts huge pressure on a marriage. Better to find a compromise location where there are job potentials for the other half.

 

[Kirkhill]

If you are going to collapse the RCAF into Mirabel I have another proposal for you.

Collapse it into the Carling Campus.

A Squadron of Kratos Valkyrie MQ-58As in the SW fields should get the job done. Arm them with MBDA Meteors. 2 per aircraft. As you can see from the red circle that gets most of the job done. And the green circle gets the rest of the job done. They are cheap enough that they can be discarded if necessary but the zone between the red and green circles also has lots of airfields that can be reached from Trenton so that recovery teams can reclaim them.

Let CFS Leitrim Detachment Masset be your model.
CFS Alert can be similarly automated.
The NWS has been automated for decades
The RPAS is going to be flown from Ottawa
Satellites are monitored from Ottawa
The new OTH radar assembly in Peterborough might be a bit of hardship but you will have the High Speed Rail to get you back home for supper.
Trenton would continue to be a hardship posting but, for the good of the country...

In keeping with the trend relocate the Army in its entirety to Petawawa. It can be bussed to Trenton for deployments if necessary.

Hand the SAR stuff off to the Coast Guard.

And the RCN... well it will manage on its own somehow, I am sure.

And you never have to be worried about postings, or dealing with Canadians, ever again.

Cheers.

 

[GR66]

View attachment 92382

If you are going to collapse the RCAF into Mirabel I have another proposal for you.

Collapse it into the Carling Campus.

A Squadron of Kratos Valkyrie MQ-58As in the SW fields should get the job done. Arm them with MBDA Meteors. 2 per aircraft. As you can see from the red circle that gets most of the job done. And the green circle gets the rest of the job done. They are cheap enough that they can be discarded if necessary but the zone between the red and green circles also has lots of airfields that can be reached from Trenton so that recovery teams can reclaim them.

Let CFS Leitrim Detachment Masset be your model.
CFS Alert can be similarly automated.
The NWS has been automated for decades
The RPAS is going to be flown from Ottawa
Satellites are monitored from Ottawa
The new OTH radar assembly in Peterborough might be a bit of hardship but you will have the High Speed Rail to get you back home for supper.
Trenton would continue to be a hardship posting but, for the good of the country...

In keeping with the trend relocate the Army in its entirety to Petawawa. It can be bussed to Trenton for deployments if necessary.

Hand the SAR stuff off to the Coast Guard.

And the RCN... well it will manage on its own somehow, I am sure.

And you never have to be worried about postings, or dealing with Canadians, ever again.

Cheers.

Unless Kratos has made a recent AI breakthrough my understanding is that the Valkyrie is designed to act as a "loyal wingman" and is controlled by an accompanying aircraft...so you'd still need your manned fighters flying along with them (it looks like they would rely on the manned aircraft's radar for targeting). Also according to Wikipedia "The USAF determined the XQ-58 airframe was too small to meet the requirements of the Collaborative combat aircraft program."

I'm definitely a fan of UCAVs to supplement and give greater mass to our manned fighter fleet, but I don't see where we are at a point yet where uncrewed systems are ready to replace them. To work independently of a manned controlling aircraft they'd need either a very robust AI system which would allow for engagement of targets without a human in the loop (would that even be considered an acceptable option?) or a satellite control system that can't be jammed (and the satellites themselves would have to be protected against ASAT weapons).

 

[Kirkhill]

Unless Kratos has made a recent AI breakthrough my understanding is that the Valkyrie is designed to act as a "loyal wingman" and is controlled by an accompanying aircraft...so you'd still need your manned fighters flying along with them (it looks like they would rely on the manned aircraft's radar for targeting). Also according to Wikipedia "The USAF determined the XQ-58 airframe was too small to meet the requirements of the Collaborative combat aircraft program."

I'm definitely a fan of UCAVs to supplement and give greater mass to our manned fighter fleet, but I don't see where we are at a point yet where uncrewed systems are ready to replace them. To work independently of a manned controlling aircraft they'd need either a very robust AI system which would allow for engagement of targets without a human in the loop (would that even be considered an acceptable option?) or a satellite control system that can't be jammed (and the satellites themselves would have to be protected against ASAT weapons).

Och, how hard can it be? You point a zoomie in the general direction of a target and he calls back when he gets there. Kratos has been flying drones to waypoints for decades.

 

[ytz]

as an individual who spent years working away from home base for extended periods I would not vote for this; particularly if there are children involved. Kids need dad/mom at home. We make a mistake by not providing for family life. It is one thing to disappear for 3 days 3X a month flying to Europe or where ever they can handle that but going for a month or more at a time ( and you would need to make it a month or the costs just in fuel and flying hours would be enormous) puts huge pressure on a marriage. Better to find a compromise location where there are job potentials for the other half.

Good luck with those compromise locations. The fundamental problem is that anytime somebody says, "We should move from Cold Lake to Edmonton," the inevitable response is, "Why bother? It's not that far."

Also, the idea isn't to have folks out for months at a time. We send dets to the coast and to the Arctic right now. It's basically a slight increase in this, but from one much larger pool.

 

[GR66]

Och, how hard can it be? You point a zoomie in the general direction of a target and he calls back when he gets there. Kratos has been flying drones to waypoints for decades.

It's not just a matter of "flying drones to waypoints". If you're planning on these UCAVs to actually shoot down incoming missiles/aircraft then they have to detect them with enough definition to produce accurate targeting info - and to my knowledge Valkyrie doesn't have its own targeting radar which is why it relies on the accompanying manned aircraft to direct it.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's not just a matter of "flying drones to waypoints". If you're planning on these UCAVs to actually shoot down incoming missiles/aircraft then they have to detect them with enough definition to produce accurate targeting info - and to my knowledge Valkyrie doesn't have its own targeting radar which is why it relies on the accompanying manned aircraft to direct it.

 

[GR66]

On the topic of the next generation of manned fighters it looks like there should be minimal barriers to Canada joining the GCAP program:

UK open to Canadian involvement in new fighter jet project

The UK government has signalled its openness to future collaboration with Canada on the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the international effort to develop a next-generation fighter jet by 2035.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

With the major European defence contractors already laying claim to the main components of the system I wonder what meaningful roles are available for Canadian firms?

 

[ytz]

On the topic of the next generation of manned fighters it looks like there should be minimal barriers to Canada joining the GCAP program:

UK open to Canadian involvement in new fighter jet project

The UK government has signalled its openness to future collaboration with Canada on the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the international effort to develop a next-generation fighter jet by 2035.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

With the major European defence contractors already laying claim to the main components of the system I wonder what meaningful roles are available for Canadian firms?

F-35 + GCAP would actually be a formidable combo. And maybe even acceptable to go 6-7 years with a smaller F-35 fleet for.

 

[YZT580]

On the topic of the next generation of manned fighters it looks like there should be minimal barriers to Canada joining the GCAP program:

UK open to Canadian involvement in new fighter jet project

The UK government has signalled its openness to future collaboration with Canada on the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the international effort to develop a next-generation fighter jet by 2035.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

With the major European defence contractors already laying claim to the main components of the system I wonder what meaningful roles are available for Canadian firms?

the landing gear? Ground equipment such as APUs? Definitely simulators and a lot of countryside where everyone could fly them to their hearts content

 

[YZT580]

Good luck with those compromise locations. The fundamental problem is that anytime somebody says, "We should move from Cold Lake to Edmonton," the inevitable response is, "Why bother? It's not that far."

Also, the idea isn't to have folks out for months at a time. We send dets to the coast and to the Arctic right now. It's basically a slight increase in this, but from one much larger pool.

There is a big difference between the occasional forward deployment and doing it on a continuous basis and it is anything but a slight increase. It would have to be for at least a month at a time or the costs would be prohibitive. 88 a/c only allows for 3 24 a/c squadrons so 12 six packs. Send one to each coast and that allows for 4 complete rotations so your flight crews are gone one month in 4. Not good. Do you take your own a/c or are they forward deployed and you crew them up? If they are forward deployed you will need permanent ground crew so you are back with the same problem or you will have to deploy them as well. I guess you could second the kingfishers to act as taxis but we do not have a/c available to provide crew shuttle services.
So the alternative is to bring your own a/c which would burn up your 5000 hour life really fast and you still have the same problem with ground crew. Assuming MX as the central base, that gives you 5 hours flying time to a west coast advanced base and 2.5 I think to Gander or Goose for an east coast deployment. Going north will be over 2 hours (I am guessing at that one). These are what seem from a logistical and HR viewpoint as huge negatives. You need to find a compromise where people will live. North Bay isn't a bad town and there is a lot of activity. Provide a weekend shuttle service to YYZ and you might develop some interest. But it is still a long way from the coasts.

 

[Underway]

On the topic of the next generation of manned fighters it looks like there should be minimal barriers to Canada joining the GCAP program:

UK open to Canadian involvement in new fighter jet project

The UK government has signalled its openness to future collaboration with Canada on the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the international effort to develop a next-generation fighter jet by 2035.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

With the major European defence contractors already laying claim to the main components of the system I wonder what meaningful roles are available for Canadian firms?

The same things we build for the F35. We do some parts no one else does.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The same things we build for the F35. We do some parts no one else does.

Hopefully if we join, we can expand on those and sink our teeth into some real juicy pieces that we can utilize in other areas of the CAF.

 

[lenaitch]

My brother and his wife are unilingual anglophone engineers. Both have jobs in Montreal. My SiL works for the space agency.

The idea that you'll be completely unemployed if you're not bilingual in Montreal. Nonsense. Harder market? Absolutely. But for any professional, Montreal will still be better than Cold Lake.

Also, the CAF does second language classes for spouses. Maybe they should expand those, given that they want to move us around?

Perhaps for some professions, but if the potential spousal employment is retail or pretty much anything public facing, more difficult. And as mentioned, if provincially regulated, such as teaching, healthcare, etc., how to pass a French-only qualification process.