The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[GR66]

It appears that not all is rainbows and unicorns with the European 6th Generation Fighter programs:

Italy says Britain is not sharing technology on fighter project​

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/italy-says-britain-is-not-sharing-technology-fighter-project-2025-04-15/

and

Dassault CEO strikes dark tone on Europe’s sixth-gen fighter progress

Trappier's view contrasts with that of Airbus, which cited "strong progress" in a statement.

www.defensenews.com

Here's my personal opinion on the whole F-35 question. You probably don't need the F-35 for the NORAD mission. You're primarily dealing with long-range bombers that are going to try and launch from as far out as possible. A bomb truck with great range and a large payload is what you'd be looking for. For that I'd say the F-15EX would be the best choice. Totally interoperable with our NORAD partner who also uses them in the NORAD mission and has the bonus of a rear seat for future control of UCAVs. For the NATO/Expeditionary mission I don't think there is any real alternative to the F-35. The stealth and sensor fusion will be a must in contested airspace.

So while on the surface a mixed F-35/other fleet might make sense, but when you dig deeper I think it looks a little different and here's why:

• Having a mixed fleet adds an additional logistics and maintenance burden to an already stressed support system.
• While the F-35 is capable of both the NORAD and NATO/Expeditionary roles, the alternate option will only be capable of the NORAD role which limits our expeditionary capability.
• Getting an alternative to the F-35 isn't going to save you any money. (comparative prices per ChatGPT):
  • F-35A - $82.5 million
  • Dassault Rafale - $100 million
  • Eurofighter Typhoon - $130 million
  • F-15EX - $93.95 million
  • Saab Grippen E/F - $85 million
  • GCAP/FCAS - both still vapourware and certainly will be significantly more expensive than the Rafale/Typhoon
• Since Canada's NORAD mission is vital to the defence of the American homeland, Canada's F-35 fleet is probably the least likely of any foreign F-35 fleet to be intentionally reduced in capability
• While I definitely support diversifying both our military and our economy in general from dependence on the US, I think that intentionally taking an action which in the view of the US might be seen as further abrogating our responsibility for the joint defence of North America will only worsen the political situation rather than working to resolve it.

All that to say that I think we should stick with the F-35 as our sole fighter and purchase the whole 88 fighters...or even better, up it to 138 to replace our CF-18's one-for-one.

 

[Underway]

88-100 minimum.

Based on what? Where do you get 100?

 

[KevinB]

Based on what? Where do you get 100?

For the Snowbirds clearly

Having extra is a nice to have luxury, that I don’t think the CAF can afford. I’d put anything above 88 in the nice to have category, but there a lot of other pressing missing items that also need to be filled.

 

[calculus]

Even more reason to stick with the full order of F35s - Lockheed has a raft of NGAD developed tech they are proposing to incorporate into the plane, bringing it to Gen 5+ standard. Lots of life in this program.

Lockheed wants to turn F-35 into a ‘Ferrari’ with sixth-gen tech

Better passive infrared, stealth and longer-range weapons are among the sixth-generation technologies Lockheed might incorporate into the F-35.

www.defensenews.com

 

[OldSolduer]

I’ll believe we get F 35s when I see one in RCAF colours at 17 Wing

 

[childs56]

Even more reason to stick with the full order of F35s - Lockheed has a raft of NGAD developed tech they are proposing to incorporate into the plane, bringing it to Gen 5+ standard. Lots of life in this program.

Lockheed wants to turn F-35 into a ‘Ferrari’ with sixth-gen tech

Better passive infrared, stealth and longer-range weapons are among the sixth-generation technologies Lockheed might incorporate into the F-35.

www.defensenews.com

How about the plane perform as promised first.

 

[KevinB]

How about the plane perform as promised first.

TR-3 planes are being delivered. USAF flight science test airframe shortages have been the biggest stumbling block to declaring TR-3 fully combat functional.

Basically the USAF TR-3 testing has been relying on borrowed airframes outside the test, as the test airframes are getting long in the tooth.

Brief blurb on them getting more airframes / but only 3 more and probably in 2028.

Lockheed Gets $180 Million to Convert Three F-35 Jets for Test

Three F-35 fighters will be converted to flight sciences test aircraft under a contract awarded to Lockheed Martin on April 21.

www.airandspaceforces.com

I don’t think TR-4 will be completed at that time unless there are a lot more aircraft added into test.

 

[dapaterson]

I’ll believe we get F 35s when I see one in RCAF colours at 17 Wing

You won't. 17 Wing is not being built out to support the security requirements for the F35 fleet.

 

[Good2Golf]

Even more reason to stick with the full order of F35s - Lockheed has a raft of NGAD developed tech they are proposing to incorporate into the plane, bringing it to Gen 5+ standard. Lots of life in this program.

Lockheed wants to turn F-35 into a ‘Ferrari’ with sixth-gen tech

Better passive infrared, stealth and longer-range weapons are among the sixth-generation technologies Lockheed might incorporate into the F-35.

www.defensenews.com

But Lockheed lost the NGAD competition.

Does Canada want the loser’s “improvements” in its plane?

 

[KevinB]

But Lockheed lost the NGAD competition.

Does Canada want the loser’s “improvements” in its plane?

Well the F-22 is expected still be a better air dominance fighter than the F-47 in 1:1 combat

The other aspect is does anyone want to fly in a Boeing fixed wing aircraft these days?

 

[Good2Golf]

The other aspect is does anyone want to fly in a Boeing fixed wing aircraft these days?

 

[Nvlgzr]

View attachment 92878

Buffs will still be flying for decades to come.

 

[KevinB]

View attachment 92878

I should have caveated that as a recent Boeing...

 

[Good2Golf]

I should have caveated that as a recent Boeing...

And KC-135, RC-135, E-6, E-3…and F/A-18E/F…I know, I know, all the legacy stuff, but still…

 

[NavyShooter]

I have a meme for this....maybe 2....

 

[calculus]

Good analysis in support of sticking with F35:

Should Canada consider a mixed fighter fleet? - Canadian Defence

Canada is looking at potential alternatives to the US-built F-35 fighter fleet and will hold conversations with rival aircraft manufacturers

canadiandefencereview.com

 

[Quirky]

How about the plane perform as promised first.

Ask the Israelis how the F-35 is working out for them.

 

[KevinB]

Ask the Israelis how the F-35 is working out for them.

Child is simply a F-35 hater. He probably has an Avro Arrow bedspread

 

[NavyShooter]

OK, not a zoomie, but I'm going to say a thing or two anyhow. Feel free to tell me I'm off base or whatever, but I'm tired of some folks (not necessarily here) bashing the F-35....

So.

The thing about the F-35 is that people look at it as a "Fighter" and pidgeon-hole it into that 'role' even though it's a multi-role aircraft...in more ways than folks seem to understand.

The better way to look at the F-35 is as an armed, stealthy, mini-AWACS with a supercomputer onboard, and more systems integration than most warships in the world.

You're getting an aircraft that can sense, and strike, but more-so provides situational awareness and when flying together with other F-35's in a modern networked battlespace, has the ability to sense and share data with a multitude of other platforms.

Observe, the US has admitted to being able to track incoming artillery and call in counter-battery with an F-35. They've used F-35's to guide SAM missiles fired from warships. That's demonstrated integration with not just the air-force...that's talking at the tactical level with both the Navy and the Army. Can you imagine that from any other system...?

A packet of F-35's flying over the battlespace is game changing in terms of knowing what's going on around them, and sharing that information with other effectors.

Is the F-35 a Made in the USA project? Yes...mostly...but we've been bought into it for long enough that Canada is getting some economic benefits here too I think.

Is it a fighter selected without competition? No---- not at all---- think back to the JSF competition from 20 years ago. The F-35 beat the best that Boeing could put out.

Just buy the damn things already.

 

[GR66]

OK, not a zoomie, but I'm going to say a thing or two anyhow. Feel free to tell me I'm off base or whatever, but I'm tired of some folks (not necessarily here) bashing the F-35....

So.

The thing about the F-35 is that people look at it as a "Fighter" and pidgeon-hole it into that 'role' even though it's a multi-role aircraft...in more ways than folks seem to understand.

The better way to look at the F-35 is as an armed, stealthy, mini-AWACS with a supercomputer onboard, and more systems integration than most warships in the world.

You're getting an aircraft that can sense, and strike, but more-so provides situational awareness and when flying together with other F-35's in a modern networked battlespace, has the ability to sense and share data with a multitude of other platforms.

Observe, the US has admitted to being able to track incoming artillery and call in counter-battery with an F-35. They've used F-35's to guide SAM missiles fired from warships. That's demonstrated integration with not just the air-force...that's talking at the tactical level with both the Navy and the Army. Can you imagine that from any other system...?

A packet of F-35's flying over the battlespace is game changing in terms of knowing what's going on around them, and sharing that information with other effectors.

Is the F-35 a Made in the USA project? Yes...mostly...but we've been bought into it for long enough that Canada is getting some economic benefits here too I think.

Is it a fighter selected without competition? No---- not at all---- think back to the JSF competition from 20 years ago. The F-35 beat the best that Boeing could put out.

Just buy the damn things already.

Just to add with regard to concerns that the US might in some way disable or degrade our F-35's. If they were to do so they would be seriously affecting our ability to defend their Northern border which I can't see them doing.

If in the incredibly tiny chance that they were to do so in support of a military invasion of Canada then frankly it wouldn't matter what type of fighter we have...