The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[MilEME09]

Good for Saab and us if we decide to order/buy the jet however, I'm not sure at the end of the day there is too much value in a full tech transfer for a jet design that was originally produced in the late 1980's and has seen infamous market failings over the past decade. It's very much attaching yourself to yesterdays product, when it wasn't even a particularly hot success back then.

However this is the Gripen E/F we are talking here, which is what the super hornet was the original F18. Slightly different beast, bigger and badder, and more modern.

If anything, we should be putting F-35A's into Europe to cover the Latvia Brigade given how many more F-35's are operated by NATO in the area and how much more effective it is to go up against Russia with 5th gen aircraft vs a Gripen E.

Might as well go full high low concept then, F35 provides first strike, gripen is your bomb truck

 

[Kirkhill]

This one is debatable to me. Full tech transfer doesn't mean much unless the supply chain is substantially developed in Canada. But then how is that profitable for Saab? They never talk about Canadian content and supply chains. Just assembly and vague assertions to R&D.

Sweden has other companies operating profitably in Canada for many decades. A lot of them you won't have heard of unless you are involved in specfic industries. Ballbearings, heat exchangers, pumps, valves, centrifuges, alloys, PLCs and other electronics....

Here is a list of some Swedish companies operating in Canada:

Alfa Laval: A company specializing in heat transfer, separation, and fluid handling.
Atlas Copco: A multinational company known for its industrial productivity solutions.
Ericsson: A multinational company in the telecommunications sector.
H&M Hennes & Mauritz: A multinational clothing-retail company known for its fashion apparel.
IKEA: A multinational conglomerate that designs and sells ready-to-assemble furniture, kitchen appliances, and home accessories.
Sandvik: A Swedish multinational engineering company specializing in mining and rock excavation, metal-cutting tools, and materials technology.
SKF: A company that manufactures and supplies ball bearings, seals, and lubrication systems.
Stora Enso: A leading provider of renewable solutions in packaging, biomaterials, wood construction, and paper.
Tetra-Pak: A company that designs and manufactures a wide range of packaging for food and beverage products.
Volvo Trucks: A manufacturer of heavy-duty trucks.

Husqvarna, Forsberg.

Just watch out for their market support, overhead and real estate fees. They will happily build us a new factory then lease it back to us.

 

[MilEME09]

Just watch out for their market support, overhead and real estate fees. They will happily build us a new factory then lease it back to us.

How about munitions, we need more of that

 

[Kirkhill]

Understand the frustration.
Circling back to the question on the E7, what is everyone else buying?

Regarding the F35, would buying 65 ruffle fewer feathers? It is the original number that was proposed.
As for the Gripens, Snowbird replacements and planes for NATO deployments.

Don't forget there is still the Golden Dome card in play. Along with icebreakers, arctic troops, security in general, energy, critical minerals...This game of monopoly has just started.

 

[OldSolduer]

We will fuck this up and the damage will be near impossible to un fuck.

That's how much faith I have in the GoC and its "commitments" to defense.

 

[Maxman1]

The RCAF could get their TAPV.

The RCAF soon:

 

[Maxman1]

Take note of Brazil's Gripen E delivery schedule.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Don't forget there is still the Golden Dome card in play. Along with icebreakers, arctic troops, security in general, energy, critical minerals...This game of monopoly has just started.

The Great Game has re-started, I just don’t want us to lay the role of Afghanistan.

 

[Prairie canuck]

However this is the Gripen E/F we are talking here, which is what the super hornet was the original F18. Slightly different beast, bigger and badder, and more modern.

Might as well go full high low concept then, F35 provides first strike, gripen is your bomb truck

Although still in development there is a "budget Growler" Gripen E/F Arexis Arexis - EW self protection family | Saab

 

[Czech_pivo]

Don't forget there is still the Golden Dome card in play. Along with icebreakers, arctic troops, security in general, energy, critical minerals...This game of monopoly has just started.

The Golden Dome angle is an important part of this as well.
Can the US really bitch if we go with 65 F35’s (as well as Gripen E’s) and the Golden Dome as well? Factor in 12 subs with land strike capabilities as well and the 15 Rivers and 12 CDC’s?
At the end of the day it’s about bringing back Canadian abilities, Canadian capabilities and rebuilding Canada’s armed forces.

When was the last time a French or Italian or German or Spanish or Dutch or Norwegian warship crossed the Strait of Taiwan? Are their warships monitoring illegal activities off the coast of North Korea? Are their planes flying anti-smuggling operations against North Korea, China or Russia out of Japan? Do they send their subs from the nice, warm, calm waters of the Mediterranean out to the coastlines of North Korea?

 

[Remius]

The Golden Dome angle is an important part of this as well.
Can the US really bitch if we go with 65 F35’s (as well as Gripen E’s) and the Golden Dome as well? Factor in 12 subs with land strike capabilities as well and the 15 Rivers and 12 CDC’s?
At the end of the day it’s about bringing back Canadian abilities, Canadian capabilities and rebuilding Canada’s armed forces.

I think the US right could care less about our capabilities. Right now they want us to rebuild as long as we buy THEIR stuff. So more subs and ships and planes bought from others won’t make a difference even if we spent 10% of GDP.

When was the last time a French or Italian or German or Spanish or Dutch or Norwegian warship crossed the Strait of Taiwan? Are their warships monitoring illegal activities off the coast of North Korea? Are their planes flying anti-smuggling operations against North Korea, China or Russia out of Japan? Do they send their subs from the nice, warm, calm waters of the Mediterranean out to the coastlines of North Korea?

Exactly.

 

[ytz]

I am more worried at this point than I was awhile ago however, I will point out that we are only hearing one side of the story here. Of course Bombardier, Saab and people like Mélanie Joly have a direct bias towards the Gripen, but none of them most importantly are the RCAF or many within Govt, who have previously rejected the Gripen in favour of the F-35. Joly has a bunch of Bombardier facilities in her own riding if I recall correctly, so there is potentially some conflicts of interests going on here as well. Of course the Minister of Industry wants more industry in Canada, but she has no clue regarding the viability or military feasibility of such a plan.

The RCAF seemingly wants not part of this, and there is very obviously fears within Govt that this kind of "renegging" or "fence sitting" deal will seriously aggravate the Trump admin.

They aren't the only project. There's a ton of pressure now to make sure Canadian primes get business. I'm seeing this at my level. So I can imagine the discussions going on elsewhere.

What has me worried was Joly openly campaigning for this. That was unprecedented. And no way she was doing that without some leeway from the rest of cabinet. I think this offer to build 150 Ukrainian Gripens may have pushed it over the line. Effectively getting an export market.

I am honestly just as or more worried about the Globaleye knowing how inappropriate that is for our ops.

 

[ytz]

Sweden has other companies operating profitably in Canada for many decades. A lot of them you won't have heard of unless you are involved in specfic industries. Ballbearings, heat exchangers, pumps, valves, centrifuges, alloys, PLCs and other electronics....

Here is a list of some Swedish companies operating in Canada:

Alfa Laval: A company specializing in heat transfer, separation, and fluid handling.
Atlas Copco: A multinational company known for its industrial productivity solutions.
Ericsson: A multinational company in the telecommunications sector.
H&M Hennes & Mauritz: A multinational clothing-retail company known for its fashion apparel.
IKEA: A multinational conglomerate that designs and sells ready-to-assemble furniture, kitchen appliances, and home accessories.
Sandvik: A Swedish multinational engineering company specializing in mining and rock excavation, metal-cutting tools, and materials technology.
SKF: A company that manufactures and supplies ball bearings, seals, and lubrication systems.
Stora Enso: A leading provider of renewable solutions in packaging, biomaterials, wood construction, and paper.
Tetra-Pak: A company that designs and manufactures a wide range of packaging for food and beverage products.
Volvo Trucks: A manufacturer of heavy-duty trucks.

Which is mostly irrelevant to this discussion since they won't create more jobs than the F-35 subs will lose unless the Swedes move the supply chain over. That's my point.

By the way, their propaganda does the same thing. "Look at all these Swedish companies."

They are definitely smarter than Canadians. I'll give them that. They read us well.

 

[Furniture]

I think the US right could care less about our capabilities. Right now they want us to rebuild as long as we buy THEIR stuff. So more subs and ships and planes bought from others won’t make a difference even if we spent 10% of GDP.

Then there is no realistic way to please them, and we shouldn't worry our selves too much about it.

We have already seen that the current administration has no qualms about moving the goal posts, so what makes people think buying 200 F-35s would make a real difference?

The US is already out to destroy the auto, steel, aluminum, and lumber industries in Canada, so what makes you think shuttering other industries here isn't also on the menu? Particularly after we sign-on to buy more F-35s?

Also, there is the domestic angle that people here are quick to dismiss. If spending more on defence just means spending more money in America, the current surge in public support for defence spending will wither on the vine.

 

[Czech_pivo]

They aren't the only project. There's a ton of pressure now to make sure Canadian primes get business. I'm seeing this at my level. So I can imagine the discussions going on elsewhere.

What has me worried was Joly openly campaigning for this. That was unprecedented. And no way she was doing that without some leeway from the rest of cabinet. I think this offer to build 150 Ukrainian Gripens may have pushed it over the line. Effectively getting an export market.

I am honestly just as or more worried about the Globaleye knowing how inappropriate that is for our ops.

I’ve asked a number of times that if the E7 is not being made, what are the others buying in its place.
I understand that the Globaleye doesn’t have AAR, which other alternative does?

We’ve not heard a word from any CAF/RCAF Sr Officers about any of this. Topshee can’t seem to not stop talking about the sub project and a few other tops related to the RCN. Why so quiet for the head of the RCAF? Have they been beaten down? Are they not a strong champion for the RCAF, does no one care what they say? It will be interesting to see if they say anything.

 

[Remius]

Then there is no realistic way to please them, and we shouldn't worry our selves too much about it.

There isn’t. But worry should still be a thing given our proximity.

We have already seen that the current administration has no qualms about moving the goal posts, so what makes people think buying 200 F-35s would make a real difference?

Exactly. We don’t seem to have gotten any leeway or concessions on anything despite accommodating some of their demands

The US is already out to destroy the auto, steel, aluminum, and lumber industries in Canada, so what makes you think shuttering other industries here isn't also on the menu? Particularly after we sign-on to buy more F-35s?

Not sure why you think I think that. I’m on that same page you are

Also, there is the domestic angle that people here are quick to dismiss. If spending more on defence just means spending more money in America, the current surge in public support for defence spending will wither on the vine.

Agreed

 

[Furniture]

Not sure why you think I think that. I’m on that same page you are

My mistake, I was distracted while replying, and misattributed some of the overall negativity toward a Saab/Bombardier partnership to your posts.

 

[dapaterson]

Ukraine has learned that the US can and will restrict your ability to use their weapons in ways that may be damaging to your national survival.

CAF leadership are hopefully noticing that and reconsidering their default position of being a vassal state to Canada's southern neighbour.

 

[ytz]

I’ve asked a number of times that if the E7 is not being made, what are the others buying in its place.

The E7 is still being made and sold. Who said it's not on offer anymore?

I understand that the Globaleye doesn’t have AAR, which other alternative does?

The L3 offer could have AAR.

Why so quiet for the head of the RCAF? Have they been beaten down? Are they not a strong champion for the RCAF, does no one care what they say?

1) She just started the job.

2) Public Servants don't get to criticize government policy publicly. Topshee can talk a lot now because there's no contract on the table or even an RFP out.

 

[ytz]

Then there is no realistic way to please them, and we shouldn't worry our selves too much about it.

Maybe. But it can get worse.

White House official pushes to axe Canada from Five Eyes intelligence group

A top White House official has proposed expelling Canada from the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing network to ramp up pressure. Read more

financialpost.com