The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Czech_pivo]

I'm a belts and braces guy.

88 F35s for the F18 replacement
48 or more of something else for the FFLIT jet and ensure the FFLIT is combat capable.

Yup.

If a war or quasi conflict starts, how far down the line will Canada be in receiving replacement F35's?

The Brits, Italians, French, Germans and Spanish will all be able to churn out Rafale's or Eurofighters

The Swedes will be able to churn out Gripens

Canada, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Finland and all the others will be standing in line waiting for their replacement planes to eventually arrive, years and years down the road. How much sovereignty/independence will they have if they have to rely on the US/UK/France/Germany to provide air cover to their countries for years and years until they get their new replacements from the US?

 

[Rifleman62]

What the hell does Joly know about defense requirements? It's all about jobs and votes in Quebec. She has been in government and in the Cabinet since 2015. Why hasn't she complained about this before or done something about this supposed shortfall?

How dare some of the 30 Cdn companies supplying parts for the F 35 be located out of Quebec.

What happens if 10,000 Quebec jobs don't materialize? Well the same thing that happened to the funding of the battery plants and auto mfgs. Write off.

Don't give the CF the equipment that is needed to do it's job and survive. Short term votes and power. Meanwhile we get a fourth generation aircraft maybe in 2030 and fly it for 40 years. Asinine.

Joly says Canada 'didn't get enough' benefits out of F-35 procurement deal​

Brian Lilley writes:

There are more than 30 Canadian companies supplying parts for the F-35 project. As part of the F-35 program, Canadian companies are able to supply parts and benefit from every single F-35 built and not just the ones built for Canada.

The estimated value of Canadian parts in every F-35 built is $3.2 million. More than 1,200 of the jets have already been produced and there’s a backlog of 2,000 still to be built, meaning a huge potential boon for Canadian industry.

There are already about 2,500-3,000 jobs supported across the country, from Richmond, B.C., to Lunenburg, N.S., and plenty of points in between making everything from tail assemblies to landing gear.

 

[Kirkhill]

Also, if the US has pulled in its horns on the E7 and GA-ASI and SAAB are talking about hanging Erieye from MQ-9s maybe GA-ASI knows something.

SAAB building Erieyes in Canada may not be the worst outcome. Especially if they bring Arthur and tbe Giraffe family with them.

 

[Czech_pivo]

What the hell does Joly know about defense requirements? It's all about jobs and votes in Quebec. She has been in government and in the Cabinet since 2015. Why hasn't she complained about this before or done something about this supposed shortfall?

How dare some of the 30 Cdn companies supplying parts for the F 35 be located out of Quebec.

What happens if 10,000 Quebec jobs don't materialize? Well the same thing that happened to the funding of the battery plants and auto mfgs. Write off.

Don't give the CF the equipment that is needed to do it's job and survive. Short term votes and power. Meanwhile we get a fourth generation aircraft maybe in 2030 and fly it for 40 years. Asinine.

Brian Lilley writes:

What % of a 80million USD a plane cost does 3.2million CAD represent? Answer just under 3% of the total cost. So, that is what it comes down to, 3% of the total cost of a F35 is going to CDN companies. Is 3% enough? Is it too much? Is it too little?

Turkey is trying to get back into the F35 production circle. If they do, do you think that the US/Trump is going to cut US companies piece of the pie smaller or nibbling at the edges of its Allied partners pieces of pie to try and cobble together a new piece larger enough to keep the Turks happy. What would that do to our current 3.2million CAD/plane, reduce it to 3m or 2.8m CAD a plane?

Erdogan presses Trump to allow production of US jet parts in Turkiye

The push could reshape Turkiye’s role in the US defense industry and reopen a path back into the F-35 program

thecradle.co

Erdogan presses Trump to allow production of US jet parts in Turkiye​

 

[Quirky]

I can't see this improving over the life of the Gripen so why start from behind?

Because fuck trump/the US? This Gripen idea is 100% politically motivated. I fear for our RCAF pilots who have to fly in that obsolete death trap in combat missions. Good thing is, there will be very little volunteers wanting a posting to a Gripen fleet.

What the hell does Joly know about defense requirements? It's all about jobs and votes in Quebec. She has been in government and in the Cabinet since 2015. Why hasn't she complained about this before or done something about this supposed shortfall?

This whole thing smells of another Liberal corruption scandal. What Quebec companies are slated to gain from a Gripen fleet in Canada, and how involved is Joly in said companies? The Gripen already lost the competition in Canada and in every country it put bids in. Build the Gripen in Canada sure, but don't paint RCAF logos on them.

If a war or quasi conflict starts, how far down the line will Canada be in receiving replacement F35's?

What war do you envision where Canada is starting to take F35 combat losses where they need replacements quickly?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Alternatively, people see it as an opportunity to open the door to collaboration with a capable defence partner that isn't so massive it can trample us on a whim.

I'm not a plane guy. Buying a plane which design phase is generally considered to have occurred from the late 1970s through the 1980s, that has a grand total of 300 platforms used by the Swedish, Brazilian, South African, and Hungarian airforces seems purely political and in great contrast to our "Okay we're finally taking our military procurement seriously" mantra.

With America, we will never be anything but a very Jr. partner. With Sweden and/or SK, we can be essentially equal, which means a lot less bowing and scraping to appease the other partner when they decide to have a tantrum.

Carney had no problem apologizing to Trump making Canada look weaker than a paper beaver though. It still seems like a silly buy.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Because fuck trump/the US? This Gripen idea is 100% politically motivated. I fear for our RCAF pilots who have to fly in that obsolete death trap in combat missions. Good thing is, there will be very little volunteers wanting a posting to a Gripen fleet.



This whole thing smells of another Liberal corruption scandal. What Quebec companies are slated to gain from a Gripen fleet in Canada, and how involved is Joly in said companies? The Gripen already lost the competition in Canada and in every country it put bids in. Build the Gripen in Canada sure, but don't paint RCAF logos on them.



What war do you envision where Canada is starting to take F35 combat losses where they need replacements quickly?

LOL, the same war that requires us to buy the F35 in the first place! Otherwise, why are we buying the F35? For deterrence?

 

[Kirkhill]

Re the training regime for the F35.

We stepped from Hawk to F18.
The Americans seem to step from T38 to F35
The Swedes seem to go direct from Grob to Gripen C/D.

Does it make a useful FFLIT?

 

[Furniture]

I'm not a plane guy. Buying a plane which design phase is generally considered to have occurred from the late 1970s through the 1980s, that has a grand total of 300 platforms used by the Swedish, Brazilian, South African, and Hungarian airforces seems purely political and in great contrast to our "Okay we're finally taking our military procurement seriously" mantra.

300 of any aircraft is not a small number, even if its a smaller number than the F-35, that will be mostly used by the two largest air forces in the world(USAF, and USN).

The F-35 is the more advanced platform, but the Gripen isnt exactly useless... People like to push that anything but the latest is useless, but that is never the case.

Carney had no problem apologizing to Trump making Canada look weaker than a paper beaver though. It still seems like a silly buy.

This makes you sound like you're reflexively against the Gripen as a knee-jerk "screw Carney" reaction.

 

[GR66]

So...does anyone else have concerns about the US selling F-35's to Saudi Arabia?

Why Trump’s plan to sell F-35 jets to Saudi Arabia is so controversial​

I obviously get Israel's concern, but overall with an aircraft that is so software dependent are there not concerns about the potential security risks to the global F-35 fleet? There are plenty of people in SA that are not friends of the USA. It does not seem like a wise decision to me.

 

[QV]

So...does anyone else have concerns about the US selling F-35's to Saudi Arabia?

Why Trump’s plan to sell F-35 jets to Saudi Arabia is so controversial​

I obviously get Israel's concern, but overall with an aircraft that is so software dependent are there not concerns about the potential security risks to the global F-35 fleet? There are plenty of people in SA that are not friends of the USA. It does not seem like a wise decision to me.

Don't worry, the US can just flick the kill switch.

 

[Jarnhamar]

300 of any aircraft is not a small number, even if its a smaller number than the F-35, that will be mostly used by the two largest air forces in the world(USAF, and USN).

300 aircraft for 4 airforces over 32 years. There's only 1 western nation that uses them, and it's the country that built them. It just doesn't seem like a great aircraft to get behind. We don't need to buy them to curry favor with Sweden. Carney is trying too hard to make us look like long-lost besties.

This makes you sound like you're reflexively against the Gripen as a knee-jerk "screw Carney" reaction.

You mentioned "which means a lot less bowing and scraping to appease the other partner when they decide to have a tantrum." suggesting appeasing partners was important (at least that's how I took it).

I'm happy to give Carney credit when it's due. What I see is the government and some Canadians choosing politics over best capability for our military. Again.

And the Gripen apparently still depends on the US for engines, electronics, and weapons. So the US could just as easily shut down that supply train. If we're going to redesign Sweden's fighter jet to be completely divested of US finger prints we should just redesign the Arrow. Canadian jobs after all.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Don't worry, the US can just flick the kill switch.

Just like those Chinese electric buses in Denmark and Norway…..

 

[Furniture]

300 aircraft for 4 airforces over 32 years. There's only 1 western nation that uses them, and it's the country that built them. It just doesn't seem like a great aircraft to get behind. We don't need to buy them to curry favor with Sweden. Carney is trying too hard to make us look like long-lost besties.


You mentioned "which means a lot less bowing and scraping to appease the other partner when they decide to have a tantrum." suggesting appeasing partners was important (at least that's how I took it).

I'm happy to give Carney credit when it's due. What I see is the government and some Canadians choosing politics over best capability for our military. Again.

And the Gripen apparently still depends on the US for engines, electronics, and weapons. So the US could just as easily shut down that supply train. If we're going to redesign Sweden's fighter jet to be completely divested of US finger prints we should just redesign the Arrow. Canadian jobs after all.

If the US denies Canada Gripens or Gripen parts, they will lose far more than just our F-35 order.

What country in the world using ITAR controlled items wouldn't immediately start looking for non-American kit? If America can turn so completely against it's closet ally and partner, what chance does any other country have?

Military purchases are always political, and SAAB/Sweden are pushing more than just the Gripen. They are pushing for increased defence industy in Canada, in partnership with them.

Nobody has denied the F-35 is the better jet, but sometimes the 80% solution is good enough, particularly if it opens doors to further developments.

America is already actively trying to destroy several of our industries, what makes people think GDLS London, and the F-35 component manufactures up here aren't next?

 

[Jarnhamar]

If the US denies Canada Gripens or Gripen parts, they will lose far more than just our F-35 order.

What country in the world using ITAR controlled items wouldn't immediately start looking for non-American kit? If America can turn so completely against it's closet ally and partner, what chance does any other country have?

I don't have an answer. I think we're being dishonest with ourselves by suggesting the US see's us as their closest ally and partner. We've coasted on their coat tails for a long time and they're calling us out on it. No?

Military purchases are always political, and SAAB/Sweden are pushing more than just the Gripen. They are pushing for increased defence industy in Canada, in partnership with them.

Agreed. We can do defence industry things without having to buy Gripens. Heck we can make them on Sweden's behalf. We don't need to use them.

Nobody has denied the F-35 is the better jet, but sometimes the 80% solution is good enough, particularly if it opens doors to further developments.

Investing in Gripens just to open doors to further developments doesn't seem wise to me, but I'm a grunt so the finer nuances here could be lost on me.

What's the Gripens survivability look like compared to Russian and Chinese fighters?

America is already actively trying to destroy several of our industries, what makes people think GDLS London, and the F-35 component manufactures up here aren't next?

I don't know. What's to stop the US from turning to Sweden and say if you undermine our F35 program you're going to regret it? I have a feeling Sweden is a little more afraid of the US than us. They're bullies we need to navigate one way or another.

 

[Quirky]

the same war that requires us to buy the F35 in the first place! Otherwise, why are we buying the F35? For deterrence?

I was talking about combat losses. Who are we fighting that has the ability to take out 5th-gen fighters en-masse where an emergency order to resupply aircraft will be needed? Canada participating in a real shooting war in the next 10-20 years is comical considering the state of the CAF.