The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Remius]

So 10 years to retrain and employ? Seems a bit long.

The costs I get. The timeline I do not.

 

[Kirkhill]

The fact that aerospace is an exceedingly difficult and specialist field to get involved with? Military aerospace with products like modern fighter aircraft are another entire world away from the civilian aerospace industry, there is a reason why so few nations are able to even assemble somebody elses aircraft, let alone built their own indigenous aircraft. Factories aren't just boxes that materials go into and products come out of, automotive workforce/facilities/equipment have little, if anything to do with modern military fighter aircraft production or assembly.

Which makes Sweden's achievements all the more remarkable.

The spectrum of flying things now slides from crewed planes through uncrewed planes to cruise missiles.

Sweden may make a poor crewed plane but they make a plane.
They also make their own cruise missiles, RBS15 and Taurus. Again n they may be poor but they are theirs.
Along with a raft of stuff people seem to want to buy or copy.

I would rather have 100% of my own 80% solution than 0% of someone else's 100% solution. Especially if I have other overlapping options.

 

[Kirkhill]

I know nobody is interested in this space stuff but what the hey!

Any thoughts @ytz

Canada Deepens Space Ties with Europe Through Historic Investment

Today, at the SpaceBound 2025 Conference, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Industry and Minister responsible for Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, made the historic announcement that Canada will increase its investment to European Space Agency (ESA) programs by $528.5...

ca.finance.yahoo.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

So 10 years to retrain and employ? Seems a bit long.

The costs I get. The timeline I do not.

Saab made a deal with Brazil in October 2014. 36 GripenS, 15 of which were to be produced in Brazil.

So far 0 have been rolled off the assembly line in 11 years.

Saab promised 13,000 jobs; so far there's about 200.

We can argue we're wickedly more advanced than Brazil so we could do it a lot faster. Our history shows otherwise.

We just screwed up a contract for night vision goggles. How many screw ups and resets would we have trying to source parts for a jet fighter?

All things considered 10 years was a conservative estimate.

 

[Remius]

Saab made a deal with Brazil in October 2014. 36 GripenS, 15 of which were to be produced in Brazil.

So far 0 have been rolled off the assembly line in 11 years.

Saab promised 13,000 jobs; so far there's about 200.

We can argue we're wickedly more advanced than Brazil so we could do it a lot faster. Our history shows otherwise.

We just screwed up a contract for night vision goggles. How many screw ups and resets would we have trying to source parts for a jet fighter?

All things considered 10 years was a conservative estimate.

Someone pointed out that that is very much a Brazilian issue. Not sure that is a fair comparable.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Someone pointed out that that is very much a Brazilian issue. Not sure that is a fair comparable.

Not sure I'd be so quick to throw shade at Brazil. Sure we are a more advanced nation, but I think some introspection about how troubled Canadian industry can be should be in order. There should be a realistic discussion about the viability of this proposal, we should not allow it to be clouded by patriotic chest thumbing and condescension towards the only other partner who's done what is proposed for us.

 

[Remius]

Not sure I'd be so quick to throw shade at Brazil. Sure we are a more advanced nation, but I think some introspection about how troubled Canadian industry can be should be in order. There should be a realistic discussion about the viability of this proposal, we should not allow it to be clouded by patriotic chest thumbing and condescension towards the only other partner who's done what is proposed for us.

And maybe we should not also underestimate the manufacturing’s already existing workforce, facilities and educational systems that could be ramped up or refocused.

If it is an apple to orange comparison it isn’t condescension.

Maybe some could get off their inferiority complexes as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Someone pointed out that that is very much a Brazilian issue. Not sure that is a fair comparable.

14 years to repair 1 submarine.
14+ years to replace subs (estimate of 2038)
15 years to buy a pistol
21+ years to replace Joint Support Ships
30+ years to replace Iroquois/Halifax ships

But we'll be producting fighter jets in as little as 3 years? Even replacing our sleeping bag took 5 years. And it can't even be used in the arctic.

Canada is probably worse than Brazil.

 

[Remius]

14 years to repair 1 submarine.
14+ years to replace subs (estimate of 2038)
15 years to buy a pistol
21+ years to replace Joint Support Ships
30+ years to replace Iroquois/Halifax ships

But we'll be producting fighter jets in as little as 3 years? Even replacing our sleeping bag took 5 years. And it can't even be used in the arctic.

Canada is probably worse than Brazil.

So red tape then is the issue and not the actual capacity to retool. Ok then.

We are on 20 years plus and counting on the F35 as well. When are we getting our 1st one?

 

[Quirky]

Here is a list of F-35 operators:

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II operators - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada isn’t on that list due to political incompetence and our own ignorance, has nothing to do with Lockmart.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Here is a list of F-35 operators:

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II operators - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada isn’t on that list due to political incompetence and our own ignorance, has nothing to do with Lockmart.

As soon as they deliver our first tranche we’ll be on the list.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So red tape then is the issue and not the actual capacity to retool. Ok then.

I'm betting capacity to retool isn't our strong suit. Do you blame our 14 year sub repair job solely on red tape?

We are on 20 years plus and counting on the F35 as well. When are we getting our 1st one?

Great question. Why don't we have one yet?

The Netherlands had theirs in 2013.

Norway 2015

Australia 2015

Israel 2016

Japan 2016

South Korea 2018

Had the Liberal party not canceled our F35 order in 2016/2017 we would be zipping around in them right now.

 

[Fabius]

Let’s say Canada joins Saab in developing the next generation aircraft post Gripen.
Or we join with GCAP and develop that one from time now.

Is Canada mature enough to commit to designing and building a fighter aircraft with zero competition, zero bidding etc?

In effect we tried that when we joined the JSF programme and here we are…

 

[HavokFour]

I know nobody is interested in this space stuff but what the hey!

Any thoughts @ytz

Canada Deepens Space Ties with Europe Through Historic Investment

Today, at the SpaceBound 2025 Conference, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Industry and Minister responsible for Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, made the historic announcement that Canada will increase its investment to European Space Agency (ESA) programs by $528.5...

ca.finance.yahoo.com

Beyond launching a couple of our own defense satellites the EU's been looking to create their own version of Starlink, could be getting our foot in the door for that.

 

[Remius]

I'm betting capacity to retool isn't our strong suit. Do you blame our 14 year sub repair job solely on red tape?

No clue. Not something I’ve looked into so I can’t comment. Your other items seem to be the red tape issue.

Great question. Why don't we have one yet?

The Netherlands had theirs in 2013.

Norway 2015

Australia 2015

Israel 2016

Japan 2016

South Korea 2018

Had the Liberal party not canceled our F35 order in 2016/2017 we would be zipping around in them right now.

So red tape again. Seems to be a theme.

Remind me about the order that was actually placed before it was cancelled and when that was?

 

[Jarnhamar]

No clue. Not something I’ve looked into so I can’t comment. Your other items seem to be the red tape issue.

So red tape again. Seems to be a theme.

Remind me about the order that was actually placed before it was cancelled and when that was?

I didn't look into the date the order was specifically placed so I can't comment.