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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

I'm suggesting that it will be spun that way.

It's not like the CAF doesn't have a history of rigging competitions to favor a particular platform.
This one was exceptionally scrutinized. Complete with things like fully cleared non-government fairness monitor to do oversight even of requirements writing. Not even the AG has insinuated what you are here.

And the model used by FFCP is actually being adopted by other projects specifically because it was so stringent on avoiding bias.

On the technical portion, the bidders were given a few mission sets. And they were given an open hand. They were allowed to design the force package, pick the weapons loadout and accessories (like pods) to meet the mission. All they had to do was price in everything they did. All the pods they used. The number of aircraft. Etc. No surprise that the 5th Gen won. It takes a lot fewer F-35s than 4th gen to do the same tasks. And this is actually wanted the bidders wanted. None of them wanted a line by line spec comparison. That would favour the F-35. They argued that there's ways they could overcome the F-35s advantages. So the project designed an evaluation process that gave them a free hand.
 
Leaked or released under access to information? Lots of so called leaks are actually the latter.

Leaked. No way these could be ATIP'd. As mentioned in the article, and I know myself, this wasn't released to anybody outside the project office and chain of command. Even those of us who helped in bid eval weren't told anything. Just told to do our piece and screw off. As is appropriate.
 
An interesting item is that if we are serious about building out Cdn industry we can’t do projects like that.

We can’t have competitions open to all. We need to invest in and develop the industry. It would mean not doing a fly off for the next fighter lead in etc. it would mean we need to design, build and buy our own.

Is Canada willing to do that or are we going to insist on a competition when we need to replace the Gripen and /or F35? That’s a key question.

It’s not just operating two fleets.
It’s about doing the entire R&D though to operating one fleet while also procuring and operating a second fleet.
The same as the South Koreans have done with the FA-50, KFX and the F16 and F35.
 
Leaked. No way these could be ATIP'd. As mentioned in the article, and I know myself, this wasn't released to anybody outside the project office and chain of command. Even those of us who helped in bid eval weren't told anything. Just told to do our piece and screw off. As is appropriate.
It looks like the sort of thing that might have been in a SRB deck, hence my question.
 
It looks like the sort of thing that might have been in a SRB deck, hence my question.

Sure. But this is not an SRB deck going on Sharepoint. This is at least CSNI and NTK/RTK staffed with notes on MESH to go check CSNI. This stuff was close hold. Otherwise even industry would have ATIP'd their own scores.
 
There are ways to do this. Just not in the way that is being pitched now. If we really wanted to build military aircraft, we could:

1) Push drones and CCAs where requirements are less stringent and where there are more partners available than the US;
2) Push Bombardier to become more of an integrator. Just look at the whole portfolio of surveillance aircraft the US Army is developing using Globals; and,
3) Develop a second tier strategy for example build trainers as a reserve force generation fleet that let's us have more reserve pilots.

But none of this is on the table. Instead we're going to buy a small Panther fleet that will face growing demands and a second Gripen fleet that will be crippled over the long run in many ways.

I have a simplistic view of a conventional defence. We are at risk when the enemy creates mass in proximity to our borders and shores. We eliminate risk when we destroy mass in proximity to our borders and shores.

In the current environment destroyng mass at distance is easier than creating mass at distance. And it is considerably cheaper.

Canada needs the means to destroy ships with high explosives at distance. On all three coasts. That capability is available to us in both piloted and unpiloted, ground launch forms.

Everything beyond enemy mass on shore is a disruption and not an existential threat and provision to manage disruptions of all sorts should be the business of government.

Expedition is the act of a good neighbour. It is voluntary. Not critical.

Bombardment is one form of disruption which we should organize to manage. One aspect of that management is to destroy the incoming missiles and the C-RAM, LAA, GBAD, IAMD, EW response spectrum is making that easier. Another aspect is to repair and mitigate the damage through effective emergency response utilities. And the final aspect is reducing fragility through decentralization and redundancy. Organizing from the bottom up is part of that latter.

We should be organized to manage any disruption caused by man-made or natural damage to infrastructure, or by terrorism, criminal activity, protests, political interference or economic warfare, all of which are more realistic threats with near term consequences than the Chinese fleet appearing off Vancouver or the Russians occupying Yellowknife.

I am sorry.

But I put Tanks and Howitzers well down on my needs table.

Well behind long range, high speed munitions, people movers, ambulances, water carriers and pumpers and local security personnel.

I'm not really fussed if the long range munitions are piloted or not.

I do think we need security personnel afloat and in the air to demonstrate our claims.
 
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The possibility of two fighter fleets is quite real, with the total being somewhere between 80-100 airframes. We need to stay in the F35 deal to maintain the related contracts we have. But the government might like the idea of more aerospace jobs here and putting distance between us and the Americans. So from a political level I see this as a real possibility and at the day it's always a political decision.
 
There are ways to do this. Just not in the way that is being pitched now. If we really wanted to build military aircraft, we could:

1) Push drones and CCAs where requirements are less stringent and where there are more partners available than the US;
2) Push Bombardier to become more of an integrator. Just look at the whole portfolio of surveillance aircraft the US Army is developing using Globals; and,
3) Develop a second tier strategy for example build trainers as a reserve force generation fleet that let's us have more reserve pilots.

But none of this is on the table. Instead we're going to buy a small Panther fleet that will face growing demands and a second Gripen fleet that will be crippled over the long run in many ways.
Whether the Government decides to go with Gripens or not I think it would be a great idea to still pursue a partnership with Saab...especially the R&D aspect. Partner with them on their CCA programs and UAV's like the Skeldar V-200 which we already use. As you mentioned, encourage even closer collaboration between Saab and Bombardier (and push Bombardier to integrate AAR in their aircraft).

Set up missile production facilities here in Canada - Meteor, IRIS-T, Taurus, RBS15, RBS70 NG, Carl G, NLAW, etc. - both for our own stock and to increase global production to meet demand for sales to other countries. Leverage their experience in Radars and EW systems for our GBAD and C-UAS systems.

Maybe even purchase the T7-A Red Hawk trainer to replace our Hawks and Tutors for flight training and the Snowbirds (and get into their supply chain as Boeing/Saab are aiming to sell 2,700 of them globally).

Lots of potential mutually beneficial advantages to partnering with Saab that don't include buying Gripens.
 
It's an interesting idea that people are proposing to give Saab 100x the control and influence on our procurement that Bombardier (who everybody loves to hate) ever had.
 
New globe piece, to sum up, stick with the F35 but buy into a euro 6th gen program


Which is exactly what the air staff gave the government as a suggestion if they wanted to send a signal. But who knows....

This is mostly driven by Joly and what she wants for her riding. Only in Canada does the Industry Minister tell the Defence Minster what to buy.
 
Which is exactly what the air staff gave the government as a suggestion if they wanted to send a signal. But who knows....

This is mostly driven by Joly and what she wants for her riding. Only in Canada does the Industry Minister tell the Defence Minster what to buy.
LSVW is that you?
 
Which is exactly what the air staff gave the government as a suggestion if they wanted to send a signal. But who knows....

This is mostly driven by Joly and what she wants for her riding. Only in Canada does the Industry Minister tell the Defence Minster what to buy.
It’s all speculation until the decision is made.
 
This is mostly driven by Joly and what she wants for her riding. Only in Canada does the Industry Minister tell the Defence Minster what to buy.

:ROFLMAO:

You obviously haven't met the United States Military Industrial Complex.
 
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