The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

Would you rather be a fighter pilot who's also a bus driver, or work for big red who also flys fighters?

Except that real life doesn't offer that option. An airline isn't going to employ a guy who flies a quarter or less of everybody else.

There's not many countries that do the reserve fighter pilot thing. Mostly the US. And mostly because the US is so huge that there are plenty of folks who have non-flying careers outside the Air NG/Reserves. We just don't have that depth in Canada. Most countries don't. What we literally need is a guy/gal who is willing to fly 2-3x per week and then work as a real estate agent the rest of the time so they aren't running up on legal restrictions on total flight hours.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Except that real life doesn't offer that option. An airline isn't going to employ a guy who flies a quarter or less of everybody else.

There's not many countries that do the reserve fighter pilot thing. Mostly the US. And mostly because the US is so huge that there are plenty of folks who have non-flying careers outside the Air NG/Reserves. We just don't have that depth in Canada. Most countries don't. What we literally need is a guy/gal who is willing to fly 2-3x per week and then work as a real estate agent the rest of the time so they aren't running up on legal restrictions on total flight hours.

In addition to that, you'd need them to reside within 1hr drive time from which RCAF bases? Please don't say Cold Lake/Bagotville as that would be a non-starter.

EDIT: 30yrs ago I use to live 10mins from Selfridges ANGB base and would routinely which their planes doing 'touch and go' landings during the weekends.

Having facilities located by major urban centers makes total sense. Back during that same timeline I used to be able to be on base 1-2 times a year at Otis ANGB on Cape Cod. Another case of being located under an hour drive (not in the summer) from a major urban area (Boston).

 

[ytz]

Will add though. If we ever want to do that kind of building of a fighter reserve, the practical way to do is exactly with these light fighters.

 

[MilEME09]

Will add though. If we ever want to do that kind of building of a fighter reserve, the practical way to do is exactly with these light fighters.

Do we need to go that far? or could we just buy an excessive number of the next lead in fighter trainer, give that to some kind of air reserve pilot trade, that way if needed we are just converting them to X platform within 6 weeks to 3 months.

 

[dapaterson]

Do we need to go that far? or could we just buy an excessive number of the next lead in fighter trainer, give that to some kind of air reserve pilot trade, that way if needed we are just converting them to X platform within 6 weeks to 3 months.

One challenge is the tight labour market for pilots. In the event of a national emergency, would we be able to surge pilots from commercial flying (lots of cargo travels by air) to the military, or would maintain the economy be the priority, so Bob would still fly for UPS, not a CF46 light fighter?

 

[FJAG]

Interesting thing is by prioritizing “operations” and “readiness” what is actually being prioritized is routine peacetime operations.
If you think that Major Combat Operations are going to breakout in the next 5 years, prioritizing peacetime operations over modernization will result in your forces being less ready, effective and efficient for major combat.

If leadership (CAF, DND,GoC) actually think that war is on the horizon they would be better off emphasizing modernization.

This. Exactly this.

Except that real life doesn't offer that option. An airline isn't going to employ a guy who flies a quarter or less of everybody else.

There's not many countries that do the reserve fighter pilot thing. Mostly the US. And mostly because the US is so huge that there are plenty of folks who have non-flying careers outside the Air NG/Reserves. We just don't have that depth in Canada. Most countries don't. What we literally need is a guy/gal who is willing to fly 2-3x per week and then work as a real estate agent the rest of the time so they aren't running up on legal restrictions on total flight hours.

We have one tenth the population of the US and one tenth the need for a military, very roughly.

The US has 105,104 Air National Guard personnel 68,927 Air Force Reserve personnel. One tenth would be a total of 17,000 Canadians in the air reserve. We have 2,700. Canada has had a form of air reserve since the 1920s. Post war the establishment included 5,700 air reservists/auxiliary in a military of around 50,000. In 1965 everything went to hell in a handbasket when it was cut to just 700.

At their height they operated 13 fighter/bomber squadrons, 14 aircraft control and warning squadrons, 16 medical units, and 9 wing headquarters. Much of their role was frontline air defence and my quick research showed at least six of their squadrons flew F-86 Sabres. And yes, all six of those squadrons were based in larger cities.

You don't have to tell me; modern aircraft and tactics are more complex than an F-86. The real issue, however, is costs and budgets. You could probably train a new pilot in the time it took to build an F-86 - both those equations have changed - a lot. There are only so many planes one can afford and one probably loses more planes through accidents and enemy action than one loses pilots. So there's not much benefit in having a larger pool of pilots than are operationally needed in a given squadron.

I'm not one of those actually calling for a large pool of reserve jet pilots but there are so many other areas - UAVs, tactical helicopters, even transport, some search and rescue. And don't forget your ground personnel including a security force. The RCAF needs a much bigger and better air reserve.

 

[ytz]

Do we need to go that far? or could we just buy an excessive number of the next lead in fighter trainer, give that to some kind of air reserve pilot trade, that way if needed we are just converting them to X platform within 6 weeks to 3 months.

Experienced Ukrainian pilots who had seen combat took months to learn the F-16. And you think somebody who has only ever flown a trainer would convert to anything, let alone say an F-35 in weeks?

You need something higher than a basic FLIT if you want to reduce follow-on training load. This is where that light fighter idea helps. They get comfortable with Helmet Mounted Displays. They really master using an AESA radar (which is very different than the Top Gun days of picking A scan, b scan, C scan). They can get a chance at learning the entire weapons inventory, including live fire. And they get to do air-to-air refueling. Most trainers won't do all that. Only a light fighter will. And then if you do all of that, maybe you have a hope of teaching somebody how to use an F-35 in 2-3 months.

But broadly, the idea of a reserve fighter pilot is pure waste for the CAF. The US worries about having enough fighter pilots in a prolonged war. They worry about having more planes than pilots as war progresses. Smaller countries which don't build their own airplanes don't have that problem. They'll be able to ramp up pilot production, faster than airplane production. But also, planning for WWIII is all but irrelevant for anybody but the absolute largest powers. Don't forget the opportunity cost here. That reserve flying club is going to end up costing the same as an infantry battalion and deliver far less actual effect. And all this is in the context of even the USAF aiming for a 3:1 unmanned to manned aircraft ratio by 2050. Our biggest gap isn't pilots. Second to the lack of a fifth gen fighter, it's the full decade we are behind on drones and CCAs.

 

[childs56]

In general terms the next 10 years are going to see major changes across all our elements, equipment and organization.
Leadership keeps saying that maintaining operations is the main effort but that’s going to run into a hard reality.
Operations may have to take a backseat to modernization for several years, so as too be “ready” with the modernized forces.

That is a narrow mindset. Lots of recently retired folks that could be hired back to conduct much of that training while keeping our operations maintained. (since we are already having issues maintaining those operations it will be a crap shoot no matter how we do it).

It will be interesting to see if the most upper leadership can organize modernization across the elements such that Cdn contributions are maintained by different elements as the others enter a higher modernization tempo (P8s deploying instead of frigates etc.) or if we can use reserves to create time to allow regular units to modernize (more a army thing)

I don't really have much faith they can or will. They empire build to much, and create support for themselves or their equipment.

I continue to contend that part of the problem is that our fighter fleet is too small. It doesn't provide a large enough pool of pilots to cover all of our operational, training and administrative needs. While it may be difficult to get to that point I bet that a fleet closer to 130-150 aircraft would have less difficulty meeting our non-operational pilot requirements once we get crewing (and obviously techs) to that new baseline.

I agree and would say go to a fleet of 200.

People have to drop this idea of reserve fighter pilots in reserve fighter squadrons. It's largely impractical in Canada. Not in the least because the majority of those folks would be airline pilots who face strict legal restrictions on total flying hours. Also, a fighter pilot that flies less is simply less proficient. Until we're absolutely bursting at the seams, we don't need to be making less proficient pilots.

I would disagree fully, A fighter pilot who has some training is better then one with no training. If a Reserve pilot can head out and fly for a few hours every month and practice one or two types of missions then we have won. Really how many flight hours does a fighter pilot in Canada get at the moment. (yes they put lots of hours into planning and other training aspects). A pilot does not have to be a expert in all aspects to be valuable. Ie ground support, air to air, ECM etc. One can provide a skill set that can be worked on. I know a few Civie Pilots who would join the Air Reserve if things were 1 easier to join as a pilot, 2 actually had airframes to fly. 3 we reasonably able to join.

Yeah. Shocker. All the guys with experience came up with a reasonable COA compared to all the Wikipedia experts engaging in this toxic debate......

And the good part here? Getting industrial concessions is way easier on fighter trainers. Way more options in this space. And our order of 60-80 frames in total would be absolutely massive. Added bonus is a reduction on contracts to Top Aces.

Gripen boys want to argue that we don't need a Ferrari for everything. Sometimes a BMW will do. I think we should remind them that sometimes a Corolla is just fine too. Buy lots of Corollas and Ferraris. Skip the Bimmers. A real Hi-Lo mix.

But when we need a 5 ton truck with AC and a diesel. Can we get away with a 2 ton that can function in the 5 ton range for short periods. Where the 1/4 ton gas can't even keep up.
I am not a 100% Gripen fan, but I think it makes a better case especially with SAAB offering direct co-operation with industry going forward for us to get on board with. If the project fails then at least it wont be a total loss. We can have pilots fly their cross countries in a jet that can land all over the place showing the Flag.
( I would love to see 100 F15's, 100 F16's and the 65-85 F35s) but we all know that is not going to happen. Nor does it align with what our citizens will allow.
I would order the F35's, then order a Combat capable Fighter/Trainer that fits within the Context of being cheaper to operate.
I don't think we have enough wiggle room at this time to buy a dedicated Jet Trainer that is not actual multi role capable.

If we can buy some of those smaller neater platforms based off the Air boss or similar system. Who knows maybe some of those Northern Pilots will want to come join the Group to cowboy it up.