The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Kirkhill]

Wikipedia says this about the light fighter version (F-7)

I can't find anything on either the Boeing or Saab T-7A websites that discuss an actual developed light fighter version.

Also, I don't see any indication that the T-7A is AAR capable which would be a huge impediment to conducting an operational role in Canada.

That being said, the general concept of a combined FLIT/Light Fighter platform (whoever's platform it is) is an interesting one if it can really fulfill both roles.

Note also the F/T-7X variant.

But I take the point about there being other options and note that general concept of a two tier fleet isn't bad.

 

[ytz]

Note also the F/T-7X variant.

But I take the point about there being other options and note that general concept of a rwo tier fleet isn't bad.

This is the main point. Lot more options in this space. And we can demand way more. On customization. On local manufacturing. Etc.

And when you get to something like FA-50 that can sling Meteors, late generation AMRAAMs and Sidewinders, like how much do you need a Gripen at what point? This is just fine for homeland defence.

 

[Kirkhill]

This is the main point. Lot more options in this space. And we can demand way more. On customization. On local manufacturing. Etc.

And when you get to something like FA-50 that can sling Meteors, late generation AMRAAMs and Sidewinders, like how much do you need a Gripen at what point? This is just fine for homeland defence.

Agreed.

 

[childs56]

And sometimes correct. Or at least you're not showing any signs of learning from the blue suiters you interact with.

Your opinion.

Different military.

One that works and understand that not all things require a full time person to conduct operations. We could learn a lot from them. Similar training program, similar aircraft (for the new f35). If it works for them then maybe we should look at how to adopt what actually works instead of what continues to fail.

Different force structure. Different training systems.

See above

And also vastly different pool.

They have a lager pool, not much different.

I already explained the difference here earlier. And you're ignoring it.

your opinion.

No they aren't.

Commercial Pilots don't work out,

The 10-15 hrs a week I stated is for flying proficiency.

How many hours do our Fighter Pilots currently get a week flying? How many hours does a Commercial pilot get flying their work plane? Flying planning is similar. I ask how many hours does a ANG Fighter Pilot get in a week. How do they do it when they are working another job? Just wondering, you seem to think it is not possible. Yet hundreds do in the US.

Air Canada doesn't require their pilots to pass a PT test every year.

They do pass physicals.

Let alone be fit enough to pull Gs regularly.

You never seen a 737 take off from a short strip......

And WestJet doesn't require guys to spend hours on a task trainer honing EW skills.

But they do require simulator time. Again those skills can be learned and don't have to be 100% in the beginning. Road blocks in the way is all I have heard from the Military and its planners/ most of my life. Yet they keep failing on the same points and it gets worse as the years go by. Time to change or completely fail

You mean the guys who are mostly all ex reg force, fly in a two man cockpit and might not maintain full currency to say be the AC?

Gee I wonder why that's not a model that can simply be slapped on to the world of single seat high performance flying?

Again it is by design of the old guard, that wont change to attract new members. Then complain they don't have the staff. I think they use to refer to the Reserve and Fighter group as the Flying club.

We don't have a problem getting people through the door who want to be pilots.

I am sure we do.

We have a problem graduating enough of them and then retaining them.

What's the solution to Recruit, train and retain?

It's always a conspiracy when called out for ignorance.

lol not at all. It isnt a conspiracy if its true. That is something many have learned over the past 11 or so years very well.

 

[ytz]

Again it is by design of the old guard,

lol not at all. It isnt a conspiracy if its true. That is something many have learned over the past 11 or so years very well.

Exact same mindset as all the Wikipedia experts pushing the Gripen on us. Few mins on Wiki and they know better than all the folks who spent their career doing this.

Let me guess. You also knew more than the doctors during COVID?

 

[ytz]

They do pass physicals.

You comparing a civil physical to a PT test now?

 

[ytz]

How many hours do our Fighter Pilots currently get a week flying? How many hours does a Commercial pilot get flying their work plane? Flying planning is similar. I ask how many hours does a ANG Fighter Pilot get in a week. How do they do it when they are working another job? Just wondering, you seem to think it is not possible. Yet hundreds do in the US.

Already asked and answered. You want to spam walls of text, you can use that time to go back and read.

 

[childs56]

Exact same mindset as all the Wikipedia experts pushing the Gripen on us. Few mins on Wiki and they know better than all the folks who spent their career doing this.

I am more a fan of F15s with F35s. But we don't have any will for that. We will take F35s hopefully with what ever they come up with.
But the Griphen can be used for lower taskings if we do buy them. Hope that we get other spin offs from that project.

Let me guess. You also knew more than the doctors during COVID?

LOL,
Good thing those covid shots and masks worked so well ehh.

 

[childs56]

You comparing a civil physical to a PT test now?

The CF medicals for Pilots is pretty intense, have you seen how much popcorn and booze our pilots consume? LOL.....

 

[childs56]

Already asked and answered.

Where and when?

You want to spam walls of text, you can use that time to go back and read.

LOL, when someone says something you don't like you go on the attack. Just like the old boys group does in the military. Keep up the great discussions, we all enjoy them. You bring an expertise not seen for some time since a minute ago.

Listen you have your ideas, you have your experience(s). People generally do not attack your thoughts on here. They expand on them, ask questions and generally are curious. You tend to go on the attack trying to discredit any discussion you don't not agree with. That shows great character, one I would sit down and drink a beer with to see what you really are like in person. It hard to have a drink through a mask......

 

[SupersonicMax]

How many hours do our Fighter Pilots currently get a week flying? How many hours does a Commercial pilot get flying their work plane? Flying planning is similar. I ask how many hours does a ANG Fighter Pilot get in a week. How do they do it when they are working another job? Just wondering, you seem to think it is not possible. Yet hundreds do in the US.

Actually, planning an airline flight (which is 95% done by dispatchers) vs planning a fighter sortie are not at all the same thing. Planning a fighter sortie takes 2-3 hrs, followed by a 1 hr brief, a 1-2 hr flight, followed by. 2-4 hr debrief. The overhead in fighter ops is enormous because of the complexity. Fighter pilots currently get anywhere between 160 to 240 hrs per year.

They do pass physicals.

While the medical exam is the same, the standards for single cockpit, high performance aircraft are a lot more strict.

But they do require simulator time. Again those skills can be learned and don't have to be 100% in the beginning. Road blocks in the way is all I have heard from the Military and its planners/ most of my life. Yet they keep failing on the same points and it gets worse as the years go by. Time to change or completely fail

F-18 sim vs B737 sim are two different beast. Mission set is not even comparable. We tried the two-tiered approach before and while having different mission sets for different squadrons work in the US, we simply don’t have the numbers to build efficiency in having two streams.

Again it is by design of the old guard, that wont change to attract new members. Then complain they don't have the staff. I think they use to refer to the Reserve and Fighter group as the Flying club.

If you think the “old guard” protects anything, you’re actually wrong. The standard is looked at and changed every 6 months or so. And it does change substantially to build efficiencies in the training pipeline and the absorption at the Squadrons. What hasn’t changed are the roles imposed on us by the operational headquarters. If we’re told we need to be ready for X, we need to train to X (actually a bit beyond X). Until our core mission sets change, we cannot drastically change our training.

I suggest you stop talking about this. You clearly have 0 experience or knowledge of all the competing factors that go into building fighter syllabi, or fighter Ops for that matter.

 

[dapaterson]

The RCAF does a disservice to fighter pilots by having a single pay scale for pilots. Commercial equivalents for multi engine and rotary wing are significantly lower than CAF rates of pay; fighter pilots, given the training and proficiency maintenance costs, are arguably underpaid.

 

[childs56]

Actually, planning an airline flight (which is 95% done by dispatchers) vs planning a fighter sortie are not at all the same thing. Planning a fighter sortie takes 2-3 hrs, followed by a 1 hr brief, a 1-2 hr flight, followed by. 2-4 hr debrief. The overhead in fighter ops is enormous because of the complexity. Fighter pilots currently get anywhere between 160 to 240 hrs per year.

Which is not very many hours until you couple the rest of the hours together.

While the medical exam is the same, the standards for single cockpit, high performance aircraft are a lot more strict.

I know.

F-18 sim vs B737 sim are two different beast. Mission set is not even comparable. We tried the two-tiered approach before and while having different mission sets for different squadrons work in the US, we simply don’t have the numbers to build efficiency in having two streams.

We dont have the numbers because we do the same things over and over again.
Things need to change direction or they won't get better.

If you think the “old guard” protects anything, you’re actually wrong.

I differ on this as I seen first hand the boys club protect their own projects and interests. Everyone has a different outlook amd experience.

The standard is looked at and changed every 6 months or so. And it does change substantially to build efficiencies in the training pipeline and the absorption at the Squadrons.

how much actual change is done that is good. As has to be done because of the lack of overall resources?

What hasn’t changed are the roles imposed on us by the operational headquarters. If we’re told we need to be ready for X, we need to train to X (actually a bit beyond X). Until our core mission sets change, we cannot drastically change our training.

thats fair. The expectations are often outside of the actual realities.

I suggest you stop talking about this. You clearly have 0 experience or knowledge of all the competing factors that go into building fighter syllabi, or fighter Ops for that matter.

Lol, sure that's your opinion.

 

[OldSolduer]

Actually, planning an airline flight (which is 95% done by dispatchers) vs planning a fighter sortie are not at all the same thing. Planning a fighter sortie takes 2-3 hrs, followed by a 1 hr brief, a 1-2 hr flight, followed by. 2-4 hr debrief. The overhead in fighter ops is enormous because of the complexity. Fighter pilots currently get anywhere between 160 to 240 hrs per year.


While the medical exam is the same, the standards for single cockpit, high performance aircraft are a lot more strict.


F-18 sim vs B737 sim are two different beast. Mission set is not even comparable. We tried the two-tiered approach before and while having different mission sets for different squadrons work in the US, we simply don’t have the numbers to build efficiency in having two streams.


If you think the “old guard” protects anything, you’re actually wrong. The standard is looked at and changed every 6 months or so. And it does change substantially to build efficiencies in the training pipeline and the absorption at the Squadrons. What hasn’t changed are the roles imposed on us by the operational headquarters. If we’re told we need to be ready for X, we need to train to X (actually a bit beyond X). Until our core mission sets change, we cannot drastically change our training.

I suggest you stop talking about this. You clearly have 0 experience or knowledge of all the competing factors that go into building fighter syllabi, or fighter Ops for that matter.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm a crayon eater (reformed) and even I can tell flying a 747 and an F18 is a world of difference. Like the comparison between a Toyota Prius (Yuck) and a Dodge Challenger - with the 6.4 L Hemi.

 

[markppcli]

Lol, sure that's your opinion.

Yeah no idea what basis @SupersonicMax is forming that opinion from. Probably doesn't know much about fighter operations....

 

[ytz]

I have always said that our sister services have people just as ignorant about our business as any Canadian Redditor. This discussion is proof. Being in the CAF doesn't automatically you smarter about other services unless you actually learn from those folks.

Some folks just want to argue ad nauseam.

Moving on.....

 

[OldSolduer]

Yeah no idea what basis @SupersonicMax is forming that opinion from. Probably doesn't know much about fighter operations....

Mmmm yes. If one watches any documentaries about fighter pilots they are in great physical shape. You don't handle multiple Gs very well being a numpty with minimal VO2 Max and maximum BMI

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have always said that our sister services have people just as ignorant about our business as any Canadian Redditor. This discussion is proof. Being in the CAF doesn't automatically you smarter admit other services unless you actually learn from those folks.

Some folks just want to argue ad nauseam.

Moving on.....

But duck yer nut!

 

[ytz]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm a crayon eater (reformed) and even I can tell flying a 747 and an F18 is a world of difference. Like the comparison between a Toyota Prius (Yuck) and a Dodge Challenger - with the 6.4 L Hemi.

It's not even the flying part that is necessarily hard (though it might be if you're doing it only occasionally). It's being proficient at employing the airplane as a weapon that's the truly challenging part.

And until we have fully stacked up our fighter force, the training system, etc we just don't need part-timers as fighter pilots. And really most of NATO is the same.

The US is exceptional with the air national guard because they have the full range of full time reservist to people that just do a 2-4 flights a months to maintain currency, but not proficiency. They have the insane amount of airplanes, support infrastructure and funding to do that. And even then most is the Air NG is not fighters. Maybe if the RCAF ever gets to 400+ jet cockpits we can start thinking about this. But I highly doubt that will happen, especially as automation eliminates more cockpits.

 

[OldSolduer]

It's not even the flying part that is necessarily hard (though it might be if you're doing it only occasionally). It's being proficient at employing the airplane as a weapon that's the truly challenging part.

I can see where you're coming from. The amount of situational awareness one would need would be astronomical. Kinda like driving in Winnipeg because a lot of Winnipegers are like that.

BTW the 2023 Challenger in sport mode can be scary