The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Cloud Cover]

Come and work with me, you get to kill your own meat for lunch and be an influencer on Instagram.

 

[Czech_pivo]

JG weighing in on the F35 saga.

Canada must settle the F-35 debate before Trump forces the issue: J.L. Granatstein for Inside Policy | Macdonald-Laurier Institute

If Canada scraps the F-35 and goes with an undoubtedly inferior aircraft, Washington will be furious and trade negotiations will be seriously threatened.

macdonaldlaurier.ca

Canada must settle the F-35 debate before Trump forces the issue: J.L. Granatstein for Inside Policy​

 

[Halifax Tar]

JG weighing in on the F35 saga.

Canada must settle the F-35 debate before Trump forces the issue: J.L. Granatstein for Inside Policy | Macdonald-Laurier Institute

If Canada scraps the F-35 and goes with an undoubtedly inferior aircraft, Washington will be furious and trade negotiations will be seriously threatened.

macdonaldlaurier.ca

Canada must settle the F-35 debate before Trump forces the issue: J.L. Granatstein for Inside Policy​

Good article and I would say I agree with Mr. Ganatstein on all points.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Good article and I would say I agree with Mr. Ganatstein on all points.

With the chatter about us going with LM for our new helo's and that cost being around 18b, you'd think that someone would make the effort to bundle all of these LM contracts into 1 super contract and say, Ok we are buying over XX billion from you in the area of fighters, helo's, radar, HIMAR's etc - here's want we want from you in return. Because all of these contracts together are well north of 50 billion, which in either Canada or the US, is a large pile of money.

 

[OldSolduer]

Good article and I would say I agree with Mr. Ganatstein on all points.

WHAT ABOUT ELBOWS UP???

 

[ArmyRick]

Sooooo in light of recent events with PM MC, I guess the J-35 stealth fighter may enter the chat as a new option?

 

[Quirky]

Sooooo in light of recent events with PM MC, I guess the J-35 stealth fighter may enter the chat as a new option?

That would be amazing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sooooo in light of recent events with PM MC, I guess the J-35 stealth fighter may enter the chat as a new option?

Plus it has 2 engines, better for operating over the arctic.

 

[ArmyRick]

Plus it has 2 engines, better for operating over the arctic.

And we can round up all the anti-Liberals, put them into labour camps and help manufacture them for cheaper.

 

[OldSolduer]

And we can round up all the anti-Liberals, put them into labour camps and help manufacture them for cheaper.

But I know fuck all about building jets.....

 

[CBH99]

And we can round up all the anti-Liberals, put them into labour camps and help manufacture them for cheaper.

I mean you could...

I'm warning you now though, I have mastered the art of looking like I'm busy while actually being the furthest thing from...


Quality control may be an issue

 

[ArmyRick]

I have mastered the art of looking like I'm busy while actually being the furthest thing from...

I had a two week gap between teaching back to back to back DP1 infantry courses and I didn't want to get roped into any BS mickey mouse tasks in the meanwhile. I made sure to walk around with a sense of purpose and a clipboard under my arm. Believe me, people on a base flee from someone with a clipboard.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I had a two week gap between teaching back to back to back DP1 infantry courses and I didn't want to get roped into any BS mickey mouse tasks in the meanwhile. I made sure to walk around with a sense of purpose and a clipboard under my arm. Believe me, people on a base flee from someone with a clipboard.

Especially a senior NCO or a Warrant or above.

 

[Quirky]

And their jobs claim is bullshit. They made the same promises to Brazil, who has a larger aerospace industry than us, Embraer, with more military experience, and they've had barely 300 jobs created. And Saab's global job number is only 26,000. There is no possibility they will create 10,000+ jobs here for a single limited-run contract.

'We Want More': Canada Is Now Playing Hard Ball on F-35 Stealth Fighter Deal

Canada demands more jobs for the F-35 deal as Saab offers a Gripen alternative. With 12,600 jobs at stake, Ottawa weighs a mixed fleet vs. US reliance.

www.19fortyfive.com

-While Canada is committed to the first 16 F-35s, Saab has offered 12,600 jobs and local manufacturing for its Gripen E fighter, sparking a debate over the feasibility and cost of a mixed fleet versus the F-35’s stealth dominance.

Gripen assembly jobs will disappear as soon as the manufacturing of Canadian jets would completed in a few years. 12,000 temporary positions - great idea!

“We believe that we didn’t get enough when it comes to the F-35,” Joly said to the news media late last year. “The industrial benefits are not enough. There needs to be more jobs created out of the F-35 contract. That’s clear to me and clear to this government,” she added.

Temu Barbie forgot about this part:

Canada already has 35 companies that are making parts for the F-35. Joly neglected to mention that, nor how many people are employed in the making of F-35 parts.

Canada’s specific job count for the F-35 program is unclear, but an analysis estimated that over 150,000 jobs would be created over the program’s life, adding $16.9 billion to GDP.

The total economic impact of the F-35 program is also estimated at around $72 billion, including more than 214,000 advanced manufacturing jobs, according to http://www.f35.com.

According to the economic impact study conducted by Offset Market Exchange (OMX), a Toronto-based firm that helps OEMs develop their Canadian supply chains and provides analytics to ensure compliance with ITB obligations, the full impact of the program between production (2007 and 2046) and sustainment (2026 and 2058) could result in $16.9 billion to Canada’s GDP.

Liberal Gripen supporters are completely delusional and are making emotional decisions.

 

[Czech_pivo]

'We Want More': Canada Is Now Playing Hard Ball on F-35 Stealth Fighter Deal

Canada demands more jobs for the F-35 deal as Saab offers a Gripen alternative. With 12,600 jobs at stake, Ottawa weighs a mixed fleet vs. US reliance.

www.19fortyfive.com

Gripen assembly jobs will disappear as soon as the manufacturing of Canadian jets would completed in a few years. 12,000 temporary positions - great idea!



Temu Barbie forgot about this part:





Liberal Gripen supporters are completely delusional and are making emotional decisions.

Not coming down on the side of the Gripen but....

You provide a snippet of an article talking about some "an analysis estimated that over 150,000 jobs would be created over the program’s life, adding $16.9 billion to GDP.' - why is this analysis to be taken at face value and the one presented by SAAB discounted?

I had done some analysis earlier that showed that the amount in direct value of Canadian input into a F35 was about 3% of the value of a F35 in terms of manufacturing costs. I don't see how those numbers can be stretched out to be 16.9 billion except if they are including all the downstream maintenance costs associated with the F35. Which means that those exact same costs would be applied to the Gripen if we acquired it.

I'm in the camp of acquiring the F35 - but with the intention of finding an alternative as soon as possible and then selling off the F35's before their usefulness is gone, whether that means us getting involved heavily with a viable European/Japanese consortium - or - us teaming with someone else to build something as much as possible in house.

Unfortunately too many here - and within Canada - are looking at the LM contracts as piecemeal one off's. They should be looked at wholistically - F35, HIMARS, Helo replacements, AEGIS, CMS330, Halifax frigate Mod & Support, C130J, L5 gun - we are talking about contracts well north of 50-60 billion. For the total amount of money the CAF is spending with Lockheed Martin, they should be bending over backwards to keep us as a client. How much is Australia, the UK, Germany, Japan spending with Lockheed Martin? None of them are spending anywhere near the same amount as us.

 

[armrdsoul77]

Liberal Gripen supporters are completely delusional and are making emotional decisions

 

[Quirky]

I had done some analysis earlier that showed that the amount in direct value of Canadian input into a F35 was about 3% of the value of a F35 in terms of manufacturing costs. I don't see how those numbers can be stretched out to be 16.9 billion except if they are including all the downstream maintenance costs associated with the F35. Which means that those exact same costs would be applied to the Gripen if we acquired it.

There will be thousands of F35s flying world-wide but only a handful of Gripns, even if you assume Canada buys them. More aircraft = more maintenance = more money. 16.9B is just like any other number - an estimate.

I'm in the camp of acquiring the F35 - but with the intention of finding an alternative as soon as possible and then selling off the F35's before their usefulness is gone, whether that means us getting involved heavily with a viable European/Japanese consortium - or - us teaming with someone else to build something as much as possible in house.

There are no current alternatives to the F35, only downgrades. Any future consortiums, especially ones with Canadian involvement, are napkin exercises. Especially if Canada gets involved , they'll only drag the program down with nonsensical requirements and demands. We can't even make simple off the shelf purchases, I shudder to think what's going to happen if this country decides to build something. Everyone in this forum will be dead before an airframe makes it off the ground.

they should be bending over backwards to keep us as a client.

Meaning what exactly?

 

[Czech_pivo]

There will be thousands of F35s flying world-wide but only a handful of Gripns, even if you assume Canada buys them. More aircraft = more maintenance = more money. 16.9B is just like any other number - an estimate.

You are making a very big assumption that Canada will be able to perform maintenance on F35's that are non-Canadian in order for you assumption to hold true. That's a false assumption

There are no current alternatives to the F35, only downgrades. Any future consortiums, especially ones with Canadian involvement, are napkin exercises. Especially if Canada gets involved , they'll only drag the program down with nonsensical requirements and demands. We can't even make simple off the shelf purchases, I shudder to think what's going to happen if this country decides to build something. Everyone in this forum will be dead before an airframe makes it off the ground.

It is reasonable to expect that a Euro/Japanese viable alternative will be available within 18-20yrs. Buy the F35, get heavily involved in another programme and then begin selling off the F35's as the new airframe becomes available.

Meaning what exactly?

Meaning they should be intelligent enough to understand that their President is constantly moving the goalposts and if they don't adapt, their foreign sales will suffer and they will suffer. Switzerland is a perfect recent example - you fuck around with the pricing and we'll keep the value of the contract the same but we'll reduce the number of airframes that we buy from you. We should be doing the EXACT same thing. You quoted us a price of X of Y airframes for a total contract of Z - if X goes up, then Y goes down because Z is a constant. Have you ever dealt with a contractor doing reno's on your house? If you agree to the scope of the work and the price of the work, you don't expect your contractor to come back in the middle of the project and say, its going to cost you 20% more to finish this project.

 

[dapaterson]

One Big Contract is appealing until individual problems pop up, and the PMs have to try to negotiate their own internal bureaucracy to escalate them to the vendor to get them fixed.