The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[IKnowNothing]

Fair. Apologize for the misunderstanding. I agree we won't get an equal share.

Given what you're saying, the ratios of 6th gen to CCA's, the fact that given their planned role in it IF Airbus leaves FCAS it results in both FCAS and GCAP being essentially pure fighter projects that don't address the system of system/ CCA aspect....

Maybe the ambitious industrial play for Canada is an unequal share in what would be positioned as the sole / go to CCA solution for all of Europe. @ 3:1 vs manned 6th gen That's a lot of landing gear, structural members, and assembly work.

 

[suffolkowner]

Spain is stuck between a rock and a hard place, where they need the F-35B to replace their aging Harrier fleets aboard their amphibious vessels, but they don’t want to buy an American aircraft. They could retrofit drones to them but it’s nowhere near the same capability.



Portugal has flip flopped on the F-35 being considered for them or not, mostly down to political pressure given the behaviour of the US lately. They don’t take their defence especially seriously like Spain, so they aren’t the ideal benchmark to look at.

I think this spat with the US is probably a way for Spain to exit the naval fighters game. They can stay with drones and helos.

Rafale an option for Spain?

 

[Prairie canuck]

There's a line between hopeless and rational.

Name one country thats abandoned its F35 order in the last year. Denmark actually ordered more.

I am by no means advocating for replacing the F35. Quite the contrary as I have no doubts that at present and for some time in the future it is the only option that makes sense. However it does not mean we should not search for its replacement and seek other like minded people to see if as a group we can build our own.

 

[ytz]

Given what you're saying, the ratios of 6th gen to CCA's, the fact that given their planned role in it IF Airbus leaves FCAS it results in both FCAS and GCAP being essentially pure fighter projects that don't address the system of system/ CCA aspect....

Maybe the ambitious industrial play for Canada is an unequal share in what would be positioned as the sole / go to CCA solution for all of Europe. @ 3:1 vs manned 6th gen That's a lot of landing gear, structural members, and assembly work.

Now you're thinking.....

CCAs are more autonomous aircraft are supposed to be $40-80M. And they are supposed to be the bulk of the force. They also don't need to be part of the actual program directly. CCAs should be plug and play if they are built using open standards. There's even theories that they wouldn't be controlled by fighter pilots but by ABMs on the AEWC aircraft. We don't need to join any 6th gen consortium to build CCAs. Just look at what the Aussies have accomplished with the homegrown Wedgetail and Ghost Bat:

 

[ytz]

Rafale an option for Spain?

Who knows. But on the naval side maybe they just give up fighters. The F-35B was a huge gift to countries like Spain and Italy. Enabled smaller countries with a flat top to put fighters to sea and become carrier powers. If they don't buy the F-35B, there's nothing else that can do the job.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thankfully we have a domestic back up plan if the F-35 or Gripen does not pan out

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, I do understand that wood is inherently stealthy….

 

[dapaterson]

Well, I do understand that wood is inherently stealthy….

Hence why Oriole is still one of HMCS!

 

[calculus]

By all accounts the F35 performed flawlessly in cold arctic conditions:

Danish F-35A Fighter Jets Demonstrate Arctic Combat Capability in Extreme-Cold NORAD Operations

Danish F-35A fighters operate in extreme Arctic cold under NORAD command, validating combat capability in high-latitude missions.

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Czech_pivo]

By all accounts the F35 performed flawlessly in cold arctic conditions:

Danish F-35A Fighter Jets Demonstrate Arctic Combat Capability in Extreme-Cold NORAD Operations

Danish F-35A fighters operate in extreme Arctic cold under NORAD command, validating combat capability in high-latitude missions.

www.armyrecognition.com

It’s nice to see planes built in 2024/25 able to function in the same environment that planes, like our CF-18’s, built in 1985 can operate in.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Now you're thinking.....

CCAs are more autonomous aircraft are supposed to be $40-80M. And they are supposed to be the bulk of the force. They also don't need to be part of the actual program directly. CCAs should be plug and play if they are built using open standards. There's even theories that they wouldn't be controlled by fighter pilots but by ABMs on the AEWC aircraft. We don't need to join any 6th gen consortium to build CCAs. Just look at what the Aussies have accomplished with the homegrown Wedgetail and Ghost Bat:

Vivid flashbacks to Dale Brown's Patrick Mclanahan / Air Battle Force novels ensue. It's been awhile, but the concept of a B2 retrofitted to be C2 platform + escort is still cool as shit.

 

[Remius]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-f35-purchase-components-9.7081240

Looks like we are getting more.

 

[Furniture]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-f35-purchase-components-9.7081240

Looks like we are getting more.

16 was never going to be enough, even if we are going to end up with a split fleet. It will be interesting to see what the size of the next batch, after the 14, is going to be.

 

[ytz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-f35-purchase-components-9.7081240

Looks like we are getting more.

This isn't actually a good sign. The delivery schedule should have 18 per year in 2029 - 2032.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well, I do understand that wood is inherently stealthy….

Bring back the Dehavilland Mosquitoe!!!!

 

[Remius]

This isn't actually a good sign. The delivery schedule should have 18 per year in 2029 - 2032.

What is the minimum required to stay in the queue?

Could it be that they just went with that for now?

Brings us to 30 confirmed, nowhere near what I would guess is needed even if we went with a mixed fleet.

 

[Czech_pivo]

What is the minimum required to stay in the queue?

Could it be that they just went with that for now?

Brings us to 30 confirmed, nowhere near what I would guess is needed even if we went with a mixed fleet.

Is the number '18' per yr from 2029-2032?
Does the additional number of '14' merely represent the number for 2029 only and not the timeframe from 2029-32?

 

[Rainbow1910]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-f35-purchase-components-9.7081240

Looks like we are getting more.

I find it very amusing that this order for long lead items on additional F-35's was supposed to be discrete (aka the Govt did not want it announced) but it was seemingly picked up by the media and ran with immediately hahahahaha. The Government has let this Fighter Review charade snowball out of control for far too long at this point, they need to make the responsible decision and end this nonsense before we end up with a Bombardier-Saab fighter liability on our hands. They are letting themselves be boxed into a position that I have serious doubts that they are willing to fight their way back out of.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I find it very amusing that this order for long lead items on additional F-35's was supposed to be discrete (aka the Govt did not want it announced) but it was seemingly picked up by the media and ran with immediately hahahahaha. The Government has let this Fighter Review charade snowball out of control for far too long at this point, they need to make the responsible decision and end this nonsense before we end up with a Bombardier-Saab fighter liability on our hands. They are letting themselves be boxed into a position that I have serious doubts that they are willing to fight their way back out of.

IF the long term direction is to steer away from US gear as much as possible, then the prudent decision is to stick with the 88 fighters and at the same time team with with a non-US next gen consortium and invest heavily with them and become a tier 1 level contributor. Get in that delivery line early and then when those planes start coming online start selling off the F35's until you get them down to zero.

 

[Remius]

Is the number '18' per yr from 2029-2032?
Does the additional number of '14' merely represent the number for 2029 only and not the timeframe from 2029-32?

No clue which is why I was asking.