The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Furniture]

Unless we are reverting to building much much less technologically advanced equipment Canada will always be incapable of supporting a self sustaining defence industry.

Canada can be part of a larger supply chain, but we will never be independently able to produce everything we need. Not even when the ball the drops. Never.

That isn't the goal. The goal is the ability to build kit.

If we are using parts from elsewhere, that's fine. If the original design comes from elsewhere, that can be fine too. In a global world, almost nothing is made entirely "in house".

 

[Czech_pivo]

That isn't the goal. The goal is the ability to build kit.

If we are using parts from elsewhere, that's fine. If the original design comes from elsewhere, that can be fine too. In a global world, almost nothing is made entirely "in house".

Look at how much of the AOPS or JSS or Rivers are built in Canada? Only the AOPS's had the engines built here, none of the weapons systems, none of the radars. We built the 'frame' and the piping, the rescue boats and in the case of at least the AOPS's we used steel from China.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That isn't the goal. The goal is the ability to build kit.

If we are using parts from elsewhere, that's fine. If the original design comes from elsewhere, that can be fine too. In a global world, almost nothing is made entirely "in house".

What do you think we will be able to assemble here when the ball drops ?

 

[Altair]

Look at how much of the AOPS or JSS or Rivers are built in Canada? Only the AOPS's had the engines built here, none of the weapons systems, none of the radars. We built the 'frame' and the piping, the rescue boats and in the case of at least the AOPS's we used steel from China.

And you don't have the RCN former and or current heads coming out and complaining about the process or the kit they are getting.

Same with LAV, you don't hear the CA coming out asking for the boxer, or saying they can only use the boxer.

 

[KevinB]

It wasn't intended as a flex, it was simply highlighting that the army keeps getting LAVs because we make them.

If the CAF wants to have kit updated at a regular pace, then selecting kit made in Canada is the smart choice.

I would say that the smart choice is not the 1 million LAV army, but like NSS finding a design, and having it built in Canada - which is kinda how the LAV started -- design was licensed by DDGM from the Swiss MOWAG - and then General Dynamics bought out GM’s Defense part of Diesel Division.

Have a competition -- pick 2-3 short listed “winners” and work out the best option for Canada in terms of production from those three entities.

Now I do not see this working for Aviation, at least not in a practical manner for Canada.
1) I think we can agree that if there is a split fleet the F-35/F-15 EX would be the best choice from a combat capability standpoint.
2) Politically that isn’t going to happen, and the RCAF personnel training issues have been explained that a split fleet will devastate the RCAF.
a) Until recently the RCAF had been going down the path of a pure fleet F-35 for fighters.
b) RCAF already has significant pilot training back logs, and based on some other RCAF personnel on this board it appears that pilot training isn’t the only training shot fall.

If all the money and jobs go to foreign countries, Canadians will be less inclined to want to spend the money.

110%.
But what my major argument is here, is don’t pick a lemon hoping that it may eventually become an Apple tree.



As such, what does Canada need from the Aviation section:
Obviously a Replacement Fighter ASAP: which quite frankly is the F-35 for a whole litany of reasons that anyone who is honest with themselves will accept.

Given the desire to Eurofy things - what does that leave open? GlobalEye seems to be a done deal with Saab, that leaves the F-35 Replacement Program/Gen 6 Fighter program - which we have mulled over, and to me that is GCAP. andwhy I think Canada should be at least a tier 3 member, not an observer, and even it if takes LocMartCanada involvement with a lot of GoC money I think you need to push for a Tier 2 Role there. As well as GoC investment into CCA and UAS systems.

Plus the demand to be able to create spares and munitions for all CAF platforms in times of need -- basically the GoC/DND holding TDP/Models etc for systems to be able to find a second or tertiary source of supply in times of crisis.

 

[Furniture]

Look at how much of the AOPS or JSS or Rivers are built in Canada? Only the AOPS's had the engines built here, none of the weapons systems, none of the radars. We built the 'frame' and the piping, the rescue boats and in the case of at least the AOPS's we used steel from China.

That's my point, parts can come from other places, but putting it all together is still a major task, and that can be done here.

When I owned a '09 Colorado, the alternator was made by Mitsubishi. That didn't make my truck less Chevy, it just made it more reliable by having a high quality alternator.

What do you think we will be able to assemble here when the ball drops ?

Lots of things... often times the delay is the final assembly of parts into a platform, not the supply of components. Also, if we already have an industrial base, we can start making components in a war. If we allow our industry to die because right now we can buy stuff cheaper elsewhere, we won't have capacity when the need arises.


In the end, it's about planning the logistics of staying in a fight past the first round of wearhouse stores...

 

[Halifax Tar]

That's my point, parts can come from other places, but putting it all together is still a major task, and that can be done here.

When I owned a '09 Colorado, the alternator was made by Mitsubishi. That didn't make my truck less Chevy, it just made it more reliable by having a high quality alternator.

Lots of things... often times the delay is the final assembly of parts into a platform, not the supply of components. Also, if we already have an industrial base, we can start making components in a war. If we allow our industry to die because right now we can buy stuff cheaper elsewhere, we won't have capacity when the need arises.

In the end, it's about planning the logistics of staying in a fight past the first round of wearhouse stores...

I think you are overly optimistic about the challenges the global supply chain will face when the ball drops. I doubt we will have a flow of parts and systems here to assemble next higher assys. Unless its American.

As for planning for the logistics of staying in the fight, I agree. Which is why we should be going to place that will deliver us what we need the fastest and for the reasonable price. If that's Canada, so be it. If its SK so be it. If its the USA so be it. But the default should not be Canada.

And we should be buying more than we think we need, if you intend to stay in the fight past the first few blows placed. In this context, max out the F35 and back them up with 150 Gripens.