The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Colin Parkinson]

How much of this is people thinking air force = equal fighters, army = tanks, navy = large fighting boats? And how much of the Canadian public perception of what the military does is based on American cultural and media influences?

Expecting the CAF to educate past that with granularity is really a lot.....

If only the CAF had trained people to educate the Canadian tax paying public.........oh wait we do!

Also when you read CAF announcements you unconsciously fill in the blanks with the information you possess. It's often very useful to get someone totally disconnected from the subject to read what is written and what they take away from it. That's the only good way to ensure your messaging correctly reaches the public as you intended it to.

 

[MacNav63]

Not near any of the bases....but I will give kudo's the RCAF for doing training missions via our rural airstrip...which has often attracted a crowd to see the CH-146, C-130's or the very rare F-18. Also see several road moves a year ranging from a couple of vehicles to major moves of the Army. Again it's opportunities to show what's going on and that there is a larger presence elsewhere in Canada we just don't see locally.

Unfortunately no navy exposure but that due to a lack of water. Unless we're talking the Last Saskatchewan Pirates....

Unfortunately it seems to me that the CAF generally regards any activity in the community as requiring a news release "warning" the public that they might see the CAF at work. Even CF-18 flyovers for a game at Lansdowne Park require a news release that seems less about the "hey look up in the sky and see what we can do" factor and more about the "we apologize in advanced to anyone who might be offended by this display of the war machine."

I can remember back in the 80s when I was at university walking through the Golden Triangle in Ottawa one night and seeing either the Camerons or the Foot Guards out exercising in combats with side arms on the streets. Also used to the see the base defence force exercised around NDHQ occasionally. Can't imagine that happening now.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The GoC is being careful, because unlike posters on this site they have to be careful about what they say.

The Gripen passed the mandatory requirements, but was beat by the F-35. People on here can bash it, and make ridiculous statements to support their argument, but if the GoC/CAF do, they will likely face legal action by SAAB, and political backlash from Sweden.

Otherwise I agree completely with what you're saying. The CAF os terrible at communicating with the oublic in more than slogans... We need a lot more intwrviews and "day in the life" stuff being pushed by the CAF and amplified by the GoC.


Defense isn't unique, its expensive and high profile. Just like health care, immigration, HSR, etc... You just happen to be in defense, so realize how off base people can be.

You really overestimate the knowledge the average person on the coasts has regarding the CAF and what is going on...

I grew-up in a fishing community that regularly had Auroras flying around, and basically nobody knew what the planes were, or what they were doing.

Even when the CAF is in plain sight, the average Canadian doesn't register who they are or what they are doing.

Two way street, the pollution patrol pilot radioed us on the hovercraft that they were flying over fishboats with giant pumps on the their back and might be pumping oil. Silence when we told them that those were fish pumps.

 

[YZT580]

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On this topic the lack of knowledge out there is stunning. There are some of us on this forum like me despite being civilians are relatively well informed on defence issues. But we are far and away in a minority and even then, we can't begin to match the expert knowledge of many of you.

The government (regardless of party) needed to have done a much better job 15-20 years ago on helping Canadians understand the importance of needing to replace the CF-18s and what we needed the replacement to do and why the F-35 was the right, indeed the only choice.

Now we're dealing with a very ill-informed populace who only really know that it's American, it's had what we here know are normal teething problems (I remember when the F-18 was going to be a lemon), and is much more expensive in their minds than the perceived alternatives.

Instead they see SAAB offering something that also goes fast and can be "built" in Canada and go let's do it. I'm sure the comms team at the CAF/DND could do a much better job of explaining why that's all smoke and mirrors but does the government really want them to while the trade war bubbles along?

You have the government itself encouraging that line of thinking so why should the general population be any different? And as for communication, they made an announcement months ago re: reconsidering the F35 purchase and then, nothing. It has been left to pundits and the news folks to lead the discussion; allowing a whole lot of speculation but with no guidance from Ottawa. So again, the general population may have considerable interest but they have no way to discover the truth.

 

[MacNav63]

You have the government itself encouraging that line of thinking so why should the general population be any different? And as for communication, they made an announcement months ago re: reconsidering the F35 purchase and then, nothing. It has been left to pundits and the news folks to lead the discussion; allowing a whole lot of speculation but with no guidance from Ottawa. So again, the general population may have considerable interest but they have no way to discover the truth.

I don't think we disagree.

 

[ytz]

GCAP - and - because we'll be #4 involved in this, attempting to build a fair portion of the airframe here.

This is most definitely not happening. We'll never have enough skin in the game to justify this kind of workshare. We may be able to get some kind of subcontract work, like we do on the F-35. But that's it. And that only happens when we actually pony up real development money and commit. The current observer status neither commits the program or us to anything.

But also, I really wish people stopped thinking that aircraft assembly has value. It's the lowest value work with zero intellectual property involved. The vast majority of our aerospace sector really isn't interested in getting paid minimum wage to bolt two things together. There's a reason Saab has to get IMP to sign on to this. Nobody with any actual experience and large order book signed up. IMP is seeing a dwindling business as maintaining Auroras goes away and because the government doesn't buy IP on military platforms anymore. So they are just desperate as Saab.

You've made it clear that in your informed opinion, based on current, real world experiences and knowledge, that having a mixed fighter fleet would be disastrous given the current state, as well as the immediate future state, of the RCAF.

Not saying this is you. But it annoys me to no end, that the very people who are now screaming about the Gripen are the very people who cut the RCAF down to the level it is now, which is actually why we can't easily do two fleets. We don't have the capacity. Worse, is the gall to pretend this call be flipped on a dime. And I got mad at you, because I've seen plenty of those people accuse people like me of being "whiny" or even traitorous for simply saying what my professional experience and knowledge tells me won't work. I am supposed to smile and repeat the party line.

But it gets worse. The Gripen parade doesn't really care about the CAF. So the nightmare everybody has in uniform is what will get sacrificed so the government can make this work. There's some huge projects on the books that the RCAF wants. Full renewal of all the helicopter fleets. Electronic Attack/Stand Off Jammer (a la Compass Call). More C-17s, A330s, etc. How much of this gets shelved for the Gripen? There's been some quiet dissatisfaction already on how we didn't exercise the two options for P-8s. And now only 6 Globaleye. Not even enough for 2 whole Lines of Task. So instead of getting an air force that has comprehensive capabilities across the board. We're going to get an air force that has lots of fighters, half of which are close to obsolete, and very little of the actual capabilities modern air forces need.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well does get pretty boring I image in Cold Lake and Bagottville.

I spent a month in Cold Lake one week