The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread

[gordjenkins]

Dominion of Canada no more!
- we are just plain "Canada"
Gord

[i]Use of Canada and Dominion of Canada
Neither the term Dominion of Canada nor Dominion government appear in the 1867 Act; however, the former appears in the Constitution Act, 1871 — usage of which was "sanctioned" [16] — and both appear in other texts of the period, as well as on numerous Canadian bills before 1967.

Until the 1950s, the term Dominion of Canada was commonly used to identify the country. As Canada increasingly acquired political authority and autonomy from the United Kingdom, the federal government increasingly began using simply Canada on state documents. The Government of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent enacted a formal policy of removing the word "dominion" from all updated bills and statutes. [2]

The Canada Act 1982 refers only to Canada and, as such, it is currently the only legal (as well as bilingual) name. This was also reflected later in 1982 with the renaming of the national holiday from Dominion Day to Canada Day. Section 4 of the 1867 BNA Act declares that:

Unless it is otherwise expressed or implied, the Name Canada shall be taken to mean Canada as constituted under this Act.
and this has been interpreted to mean that the name of the country is simply Canada.[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_name#Use_of_Canada_and_Dominion_of_Canada

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Neither the term Dominion of Canada nor Dominion government appear in the 1867 Act; however, the former appears in the Constitution Act, 1871 — usage of which was "sanctioned" [16] — and both appear in other texts of the period, as well as on numerous Canadian bills before 1967.

Until the 1950s, the term Dominion of Canada was commonly used to identify the country. As Canada increasingly acquired political authority and autonomy from the United Kingdom, the federal government increasingly began using simply Canada on state documents. The Government of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent enacted a formal policy of removing the word "dominion" from all updated bills and statutes. [2]

The Canada Act 1982 refers only to Canada and, as such, it is currently the only legal (as well as bilingual) name. This was also reflected later in 1982 with the renaming of the national holiday from Dominion Day to Canada Day. Section 4 of the 1867 BNA Act declares that:

Unless it is otherwise expressed or implied, the Name Canada shall be taken to mean Canada as constituted under this Act.
and this has been interpreted to mean that the name of the country is simply Canada. No constitutional statute amends this name and the subsequent Canada Act 1982 does not use the term dominion at all; nor does it state that Canada is not a dominion. While no legal document ever says that the name of the country is anything other than Canada, Dominion and Dominion of Canada remain official titles of the country.[17][18][19]

In recent years the terms Dominion of Canada and Dominion are occasionally used to distinguish modern (post-1867) Canada from either the earlier Province of Canada or from the even earlier The Canadas. The terms are also used to distinguish the federal government from the provinces, though in this usage "federal" has become more common than "dominion". Among those who lament disuse of the term was the late Eugene Forsey, in response to what he and other monarchists consider increasing republicanism. However, the federal government continues to produce publications and educational materials that specify the currency of these official titles.[20][19]

Footnotes:

2. Trigger, Bruce G.; Pendergast, James F. (1978). "Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians", Handbook of North American Indians Volume 15. Washington: Smithsonian Institution, pp. 357-361. OCLC 58762737. 

16. Martin, Robert. 1993(?). 1993 Eugene Forsey Memorial Lecture: A Lament for British North America. The Machray Review. Prayer Book Society of Canada. — A summative piece about nomenclature and pertinent history with abundant references.
17.  Marsh, James H., ed. 1988. "Dominion" The Canadian Encyclopedia. Hurtig Publishers: Toronto.
18.  Rayburn, pp. 19, 21.
19  a b Canadian Heritage: National Flag of Canada Day, Canada's Digital Collections: Confederation 1867, Canadian Heritage: The Prince of Wales Royal Visit 2001, Quiz
20.  Forsey, Eugene A. 2005. How Canadians Govern Themselves (PDF), 6th ed. Canada: Ottawa; pp. 8-9.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_name

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Just an update:
The Canadian Heraldic Authority is right in a flurry to  register all the varieties of Canadian red ensigns so expect to see a red ensign flying. It also looks like it will be the "9 province" ensign but that is not definitive.

Source: Coppermine Herald (a person, not a newspaper)

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Another Update:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=16ee79dd-e45e-4f4a-b5e8-cf9f24e543f8&k=76825

Two salient points:
1) It will be the "4 province flag" 
2) It's going to be flying all year

As I read more about this it seems that the 4 province flag had some measure of official sanction so probably it has precedence over the "9 province flag". I was more worried about seeing the 1921 (green leaves) or 1955 (red leaves) versions.

 

[gordjenkins]

Can anyone tell me how many versions there are of the Canadian Red Ensign
and
which one is now going to be flown at Vimy now ??

 

[onecat]

Personal I think both should be there, as the Ensign of teh Flag on Canada in 1917 and so it deserves its spot on the Ridge just as the Maple leaf does.

And there is no way to tell of teh vets from the ridge would of prefered the current flag as there was a lot of feeling for old Ensign.

"Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"

The reason for this is because Canada after the Great War went back to the Union Jack and it stayed that way until WW2 and even then it was only late in the war that canadians found their flag again.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

This a good place to start
Flags of the world
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying

Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.

 

[RangerRay]

Can anyone tell me how many versions there are of the Canadian Red Ensign

According to <a href="http://flagspot.net/flags/ca_.html">this</a> , at least seven.  Scroll down the page till you see the header "History".  I appear to be incorrect.  Although the "9 province" ensign was unofficially in use, the "4 province" ensign was the "official" ensign from 1892 - 1922.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

This a good place to start
Flags of the world
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying

Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.

I goofed.

:cheers:

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

I don't see how you see too many coats of arms, there are only four there. It is Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Granted the Quebec and Nova Scotia are not those currently in use.
What you show is a 1955 Canadian Red Ensign England, Scotland, Ireland, France (Last time I checked those weren't provinces) + Canada
( red maple leaves as opposed to proper maple leafs).

 

[pidd]

Someone, I think it was Mark Steyn, once remarked: 
'Canada is the only country in the western world that celebrates its heritage by abolishing it.'

There was absolutely no need whatsover for this controversy to have occurred except for the idiocy and anti-British sentiment in the federal bureaucracy. The spokesperson for VA stated that 'only the national flag of Canada can fly on federal property'.  Rubbish.  Right now at the Vimy Memorial, the flag of France flies beside the Maple Leaf.  It is Canadian soil not French.  Every Remembrance Day, the Maple Leaf and the Union Flag fly on federal property; including the War Memorial in Ottawa.  The Union Flag was designated an official Canadian flag by act of Parliament, 18 December 1964 in order to permit continuity with Canada's relationship and history within the Commonwealth and loyalty to the Crown and is flown on certain days throughout the year and at ceremonies where Canada's participation with other Commonwealth forces are marked.  Vimy would certainly fit that scenario.

I am amazed and saddened at the apparent indifference to the once-treasured emblems of our country's past among members of the military where the very heart and soul of service identity is with the honours, the comrades, the tradition established by those who have gone before us.

Historical revisionism, the vertiable lack of teaching and reading in history over the past four decades and the insidious invention of a mythology surrounding Vimy and the Maple Leaf (as if the former was Canada's battle for independence instead of a splendid victory over the German defenders and the latter its symbol!) leaves one breathtakingly gasping for the spirit of John McCrae. Canada grew to nationhood because it was British not in spite of it.

We who serve or who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces in each generation ought to stand, not merely for our own personal preferences in protocol, drill, deportment or symbolism, but for the rich legacy, including the British, that was bought so dearly on the battlefield. 

My grandfather, Sgt. Ernest Leonard, fought at Vimy Ridge with the 19th Battalion.  Like more than half of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, he was from the British Isles.  Their loyalty, devotion and enormous sense of duty for the Empire and the Dominion at the time, ought not to so easily be airbrushed away. 

It is disgraceful that such a public display of deliberate misrepresentation by the bureaucrats, especially ones who claim to represent
veterans, should have taken place at all.  It dishonours the memory of the fallen and the cause for which they fell and makes one wonder why they would go to such lengths to deceive.

The Prime Minister's heart is in the right place by responding to the call of the veteran's organisations and the particular Red Ensign that will be raised at least signals some kind of acknowledgement and respect towards the generation of the men being honoured.

The Maple Leaf and the Union Flag, by protocol, should fly. 

 

[RangerRay]

Well said Pidd.  PM inbound.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

I remember that flag:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-remember-this-flag-and-those-who.html

The Government of Canada has finally come around to remembering it properly too.

 

[Signalman150]

+1

My father was in the RCAF when I was a wee tad.  That's the flag I remember being painted on the tails of the Sabres, Canucks and--later--Starfighters in Europe. I have pic of me with my parents standing in front of the first Starfighter delivered to 3 Wing Zweibrucken, and yep; on the tail is the Red Ensign.

All the kids from the DND school went out to the airbase at Decimomannu in Sardinia for the "official" raising of the Maple Leaf.  It was just another school outing for me, but I still remember a sense of disappointment at seeing the new flag.  It wasn't nearly as colourful or complex as the Ensign, and to my 8 year old mind that was sad.

I've always had a soft spot for that flag; it represented Canada to me at my most impressionable age.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest, with the usual glasses G&M wear - highlights & italics mine - shared with the usual disclaimer...

Dallaire slams decision to fly Red Ensign
INGRID PERITZ, Globe & Mail, 090439EST Jul 07
Article link

Senator Roméo Dallaire is blasting Ottawa's decision to fly the historic Red Ensign at the Canadian National Vimy Memorial, calling it an inappropriate move that also flies in the face of proper protocol.

The retired Canadian general says the Red Ensign belongs in an interpretation centre, not in a prominent spot on equal footing with the Canadian Maple Leaf and national flag of France.

"The Red Ensign is not our Canadian flag - it was our Canadian flag," Mr. Dallaire said in an interview yesterday. "To put the Red Ensign at the same level as the French and current Canadian flag is absolutely against all possible protocol. It's inappropriate."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, after lobbying by some veterans groups, decided to fly the Red Ensign during April's 90th anniversary commemoration of the Vimy Ridge battle in France.

His government quietly decided soon afterward to fly the flag year-round. The Red Ensign was the flag Canadian soldiers fought under during two world wars, and was replaced in 1965 by the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire decided to speak out after he was approached by another senator from Quebec, Marcel Prud'homme, who visited the Vimy memorial in France last month and was incensed to see the Red Ensign flying side by side with the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire said the Prime Minister was misguided to yield to veterans' lobbying efforts.

"He called it wrong," Mr. Dallaire said.

"Of course you respect our veterans, but you also respect protocol and you don't take spontaneous decisions like that when you're touching things of significance," Mr. Dallaire said.

Canadian protocol calls for no flag but the Canadian Maple Leaf to fly on federal monuments, so the Prime Minister had to override the rules.

Mr. Dallaire said his own father was a career soldier who fought under the Red Ensign for six years during the Second World War. "When the new flag came out, for the first little while he was a bit unhappy. But then he made a decision. He said, 'This is our new flag and this is the flag of our nation, and that's it.' He turned the page."

Mr. Dallaire, a member of the Vimy Memorial Restoration Committee, said he will raise the issue with the Harper government.

A spokesman for Veterans Affairs said the decision to fly the Red Ensign at the Vimy Memorial permanently was made by the Prime Minister's Office.

A spokesman for Jason Kenney, secretary of state for multiculturalism and Canadian identity, defended the move. He noted that a public opinion poll showed a strong majority of Canadians - 79 per cent - favoured the flying of the Red Ensign at Vimy for the April commemoration ceremony.

(My own add-on -- According to the Ipsos-Reid poll released 24 Mar 07 here, 79% said yes to this question, according to the survey details:  "...Today, Canadian government protocol allows no other flag than the Maple Leaf to fly on the federal property monument but some groups are now asking the government to forgo that protocol and fly the Red Ensign, the flag that Canadian troops fought under in World War One, alongside the Maple Leaf AT the 90th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge. Do you support or oppose the two flags flying together for this occasion?")

"We can recognize the fact that the Canadian Red Ensign is an enduring source of Canadian patriotism," the spokesman, Alykhan Velshi, said. "It's entirely appropriate that it flies at the monument [in Vimy] to commemorate those soldiers who fought under it."

Mr. Dallaire said Ottawa's decision suggests the country does not know how to properly mark its history.

"You sort of wonder sometimes at the maturity of our nation in things of this nature."

Mr. Dallaire retired as a lieutenant-general in the Canadian Forces in 2000.

 

[pidd]

This 'issue' is full of falsehoods mixed in with anti-British vitriol.

The protocol concerning the flying of flags on federal properties is overseen by the Department of Heritage.
The Department of Heritage, following the act of Parliament, 1964, asserts that the Royal Union Flag
ought to be flown on certain days of the year and on those occasions when the Canadian forces
participated with other Commonwealth forces, i.e., Vimy, Dieppe, Normandy, et al.

The protocol is that when just one pole is available, only the national flag can be flown.

When more than one pole is available for those days and occasions, the Royal Union Flag, aka, the Union Jack, must be flown.

That is why the Union Flag, the 'official' flag, even during the times of varieties of the Red Ensign, up to February, 1965, is always flown on Remembrance Day on federal property, e.g., the national war memorial.

The adherence to this protocol, or rather the lack of it, has created the illusion that 'only the national flag'
can fly on federal land.

The conservative government, no doubt sensitive to the political culture into which they came, chose to
respond to the requests for the Red Ensign instead of the Union Flag.  Either way, there is certain
part of Canada that never liked the British flag, the British, their ensigns, their monarchs, their wars,
their anything and, for the most part, they have had 'their' way with respect to abolishing the pre-1965
heritage of this country.

Dallaire is a disgrace for more than this.

 

[Spencer100]

Dilliare is every Liberal's favourite ex-General.  I can not speak to his military record but I am they upset about his record in the senate.  As Liberal appointment he has become very much a Liberal and not very friendly to his ex-profession. 

As to the flag, MY OPPION is that we have had other flags in this country and we should remember them and the people who served under them. 

 

[bannerman]

Interesting photo of an occasion when the Canadian Red Ensign was used as an official Canadian flag. It was, strictly speaking, one of two Canadian Flags of that time, including the Royal Union.

This photo shows the dedication of a Canadian Field Artillery memorial on Vimy Ridge in 1918. The unmistakeable figure of Sir Arthur Currie stands out among the officers around the chaplain.

 

[George Wallace]

That I will accept as "a" Red Ensign; but I will not accept it as "the" Canadian Red Ensign that was the flag we flew prior to the current Canadian Flag.  It does not have the Shield incorporating the ten Province's Coats of Arms.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:

The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html