The role of the military and its relation to alleviating humanitarian crises?!

[George Wallace]

... I do value humanitarian aid and development work, but I am not really trying to look at the military's role through that avenue. I am more concerned with the above - this being the CF's duty to the international community in protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering, and also forcefully intervening in failed states.

Ah!  Another twist.  All members of Canadian society fall under the Laws of Canada which we all know have articles protecting Human Rights.  We are also, for the most part, Christian and "Samaritans" or Charitable towards those who are suffering.  It is part of our 'Western' and more particularly Canadian upbringing.  Canada's Military are bound by the Laws of Canada, International Laws, and the Laws of whatever nation they may set foot in.  Also, members of the CF do not drop their Religious, Ethnic, or Moral values just because they join the CF.

I hope that helps.

 

[Future Prodigy]

george - could you elaborate a bit more on that?!

 

[aesop081]

Future prodigy,

What is the military ethos?

Amazing what a search turns up........

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33510.0.html

 

[zipperhead_cop]

It depends how you define canada! I am not willing to fight for a canada that exploits other countries via neo-imperialist means (to be fair, we have not fallen trap to such an ideology/agenda, as our southern brother has, but if it got around to that then no i would not).

In the CF you don't get to decide what flavour of Canada you choose.  However, you can start by using a capital "C" when you bother to write the name of our nation. 
Once you join the real world, you will find all that tripe they pounded into you at school is just that-tripe.  There is a reason most of this rhetoric exists only in universities.  A bunch of professional students pushing their views on a bunch of kids who don't know better. 

I am willing to fight for canadian values, ideals, political systems and physical lives,

Most people are, but that doesn't make you soldier material.

but not so the consumerist/materialistic status quo can be maintained - i also as you may realize think a drastic change in our lifestyle within canada needs to occur as well. So, the answer is not black and white.

Yeah, that "lifestyle change" didn't work in Russia, Cuba or most of the rest of the planet that tried the Communist experiment, which failed so spectacularly.  It will never happen.  Period.  I think I can speak for a vast number of regular citizens who are pretty much unwilling to make our lives more difficult for the sake of making someone elses easier.  We already pay unreasonable taxes, and I have no interest in paying more.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

It depends how you define canada! - i also as you may realize think a drastic change in our lifestyle within canada needs to occur as well.

Assume nothing regarding what I realize about what you think.  What kind of changes do you envision, and how do you propose making them?  Do you wish to re-define Canada?

 

[TCBF]

It depends how you define canada! I am not willing to fight for a canada that exploits other countries via neo-imperialist means (to be fair, we have not fallen trap to such an ideology/agenda, as our southern brother has, but if it got around to that then no i would not). I am willing to fight for canadian values, ideals, political systems and physical lives, but not so the consumerist/materialistic status quo can be maintained - i also as you may realize think a drastic change in our lifestyle within canada needs to occur as well. So, the answer is not black and white.

- Actually, if they ever introduce conscription again (three times lucky!) you will fight who you are told to fight.

 

[a_majoor]

Future Prodigy, I think things are going a bit off the rails here. Working to change our values and society is in the realm of politics, and you are best able to do this by entering the political process as a member of a party or a candidate for office.

The CF is not in the business of changing Canadian society, and indeed the principle of civilian control is in place precisely to prevent the military from using its armed power against the State. (My personal opinion is people who serve are better citizens overall, but that is bias on my part).

Going on about military power in the pursuit of resources betrays a limited grasp of recent history (post 1945), since there are very few instances that I can recall where Western military power was deployed to control foreign resources in the post war period. Buying resources has proven far more effective in the long run, and the process of substitution had undercut the price of many commodity resources until the recent growth of China and India as industrial consumers (for example copper has been largely replaced by aluminum for electrical transmission and sand (silicon) for electronic equipment). On the other hand there are plenty of examples of illiberal nations and ideologies oppressing their people or trying to extend their power through conquest, so I can't see our job ending anytime soon.

 

[Future Prodigy]

Yeah, that "lifestyle change" didn't work in Russia, Cuba or most of the rest of the planet that tried the Communist experiment, which failed so spectacularly.  It will never happen.  Period.  I think I can speak for a vast number of regular citizens who are pretty much unwilling to make our lives more difficult for the sake of making someone elses easier.  We already pay unreasonable taxes, and I have no interest in paying more.

Awww, i love the irony here. Someone above mentions we are a Christian society, ethical - the good Samaritans - and then i read this lol. Oh how greed makes even the best meaning people into cold hearted creatures. I will not debate this topic here because it is digressing from the original topic, and from the 'tripe' comments it will just go in one ear and out the other. There is no point in debating conservative realists. Even the Pope has been vocal the need for a drastic systemic reordering of the way our capitalistic system is set up - this does not imply socialism, or communism though, just that it needs to change.

TCBF - your conscription point has no relevance whatsoever... every time conscription was implemented here it was a just war and i would have no problem fighting in them.

Can we get back to the original topic at hand, that being the CF's duty to the international community in protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering, and also forcefully intervening in failed states. How much of this 'duty' is implemented in our "Jus ad Bellum"? I do not know much about canadian military history (i have only studied the USA military history).

thucydides- you are right i have gone a bit off the rails, but that is due to the various side topics that have emerged. Like i said originally i am discerning joining the forces - i have this internal vacuum of emtiness that is looking for a career with meaning - I just do not want to sign up and find out i am fighting for the wrong ethical world view and political agenda - i.e. only for the interests of canadians, etc (my religious world view could not accept that). I really do want to fight for all the oppressed, not just canadians - a one world humanity type of deal.

 

[Future Prodigy]

If you do not want to fight for the interests of Canada and Canadians...don't bother even opening the door to the recruiting centre. The CF exists...its entire raison d'etre...is to defend Canadians and their interests at home and overseas. Thats the only reason we exist! Take Afghanistan, for example. We are doing GREAT things there. Spreading democracy and our modern way of life, promoting education and respect etc. But in the end of the day, we are there because it is in CANADA'S BEST INTEREST that Afghanistan is secure. It's a strategic location, and was a breeding ground for terrorists who were sworn enemies of Canada. Yes, we are rebuilding the place. Which is good, and is the right thing for us to do. However, in the end of the day we went there because it was necessary for the security of the region (which is good for Canada) and the security of Canada itself. Thats the way it is, always has been, and always will be. Military forces exist to defend, promote and secure a nation's interest's through force. If you can't stomach that, well, then I'm sure CIDA, Foreign Affairs and a myrid of other NGO's and GO's would love to have you.

It's interesting you see afghan in this light as it is very rarely talked about in this manner. It is always in reference to the civilians living in the country, not serving our own self national interest. I can guarante you that our liberal society would never support the war if it was talked about in that kind of rhetoric. This is what interests me. This huge dichotomy between what is portrayed as the official reason, given to the masses, and then what is believed on the ground level (or in political office).

So where does the transparent and neutral UN fit into all of this in your view? One of the reasons we have not taken so much flack, from the public, is because of the mission being a UN sanctioned 'just' mission fighting for others who can not fight for themselves!!!!!

----------
The CF does not have a duty to the international community. It only has a duty to Canada. Canada may have a duty of sorts to the international community to honor its treaty commitments, for example, but in the end of the day there is no higher duty then that to your country. The CF answers only to Canada/Government at the time and Canadians.

Those were not my words but the words given by the official statement on the dnd website posted by another member in this thread! So, obviously... once again, there is a dichotomy created.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Can we get back to the original topic at hand, that being the CF's duty to the international community in protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering, and also forcefully intervening in failed states. How much of this 'duty' is implemented in our "Jus ad Bellum"? I do not know much about canadian military history (i have only studied the USA military history).

Others have commented better than I have, but let's try this another way:  The CF's "duty to the international community" goes only as far as the Canadian Government decides - the CF works for CANADA, not the United Nations, or the world.  Canada may be seen to have a duty to the international community, but the CF is only one tool in Canada's tool belt in meeting the duty to the extent that the CANADIAN GOVERNMENT decides.

You join, you obey the orders coming down from the elected officials of the day - in that respect, it IS black and white.  If one gets to pick and choose which missions one agrees with, how would you feel in this scenario:  You're a Canadian in a country that's, for whatever reason, going through bad instability of the kind only force of arms can help.  What if none of the soldiers assigned to come and help you out agreed with this task?  Would you be comforted to know they got to vote with their consciences? 

If this example sounds too remote, consider one where you call the police help, and they decide yours wasn't the cause they feel is worth putting their lives on the line for - sound fair?

As others have said, if you want to change how Canada wields its power, the CF isn't the way to do that.  If you want to help deliver humanitarian or human rights help regardless of what a specific government of the day might want, perhaps an NGO is a better choice.  If you are not willing to do the mission decided on by the elected government, you're better off staying out of the CF.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Looking at your questions and comments, Future Prodigy, all I can say is, à la Monty Python, ”Run away! Run away!” The military is not for you.

Over a long (more than 35 years) career I had occasion, now and again, to give quick, urgent but completely lawful commands that sent soldiers to do things that, on reflection, some of us might have found distasteful. Because my commands were lawful I expected and got instant, complete and instinctive obedience – there was no time for anyone to parse my orders against their own, personal moral or political values. Had anyone even thought to have done so I would have locked them so deep in the piss-can that their mothers would have had to send fresh air and sunshine by FedEx. The essence of soldiering is discipline and part of discipline is instinctive obedience to lawful commands - not blind obedience because 99% of Canadian soldiers are smart enough to be able to tell the lawful from the unlawful command 99% of the time. Another part of discipline is a willingness to submerge one’s own feelings in order to accomplish the team’s, your team's mission – even at the cost of one’s life.

Let’s here no more of the “good war” rubbish. Her Majesty doesn’t send us to fight “bad” wars. She may not always pick the popular ones, but we are sent to defend her realm and her interests and that’s why we all signed on. If, as proves to be the case every few hundred years, the sovereign's interests, the national interests, are wrong then the people will change the sovereign. If, as happens more frequently, the people don't like HM's decisions they will change her government and a new government may change policy - or not. In any event, anyone who signed on for a “job” or for anything but to defend the county and its interests is taking his salary under false pretences and, when push comes to shove – as it inevitably will, will find themselves deeply troubled.

Stay away from the military, Future Prodigy; there’s no place for you there. Write the Foreign Affairs exam; take a job with Oxfam; go into politics; become a journalist – they all have the right, even the duty, to pick the moral pepper from the operational fly-shit. Soldiers, on the other hand, just do the right thing and try to do things right, too.

 

[leroi]

E. R. Campbell,

Wow! That was so well said!!!  It's a pleasure to hear someone speak from a place of both conviction and experience, E.R.

Once again, I'm astounded by the breadth and depth of wisdom contained within the Canadian military as demonstrated in this thread.

You've all given FP superb commentary and feedback to help him with his career aspirations.

I've followed this thread all the way through; thank you for teaching me so much. I know I've learned because when I look back at my initial post it seems somewhat naive and simplistic--although true.

FP: I reccommend you go after an LLB--Human Rights or International Development. You have the tenacity of a bulldog, the ability to change venues quickly and ... you have a good grasp of Socratic interlocution. How do you feel about the wealth of information you've been give?

Thanks everyone ... God Bless And Keep You Safe ...

 

[Yrys]

Once again, I'm astounded by the breadth and depth of wisdom contained within the Canadian military as demonstrated in this thread.

Hum, why ?

I "know"  (presume) you don't mean anything on the downside, but it seems to me a little condescending ... and I'm a civilian...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...I don't take it that way.

 

[leroi]

Yrys,

Maybe that's the difficulty when communication is written only--with no other communication cues like facial expressions, etc. My intent was not to condescend.
Personally, I came here because of a realization that my own knowledge of the Afghanistan mission is poor.  So perhaps my enthusiasm at what I've learned here is being transmitted ineffectually. The fact is, I've learned more that I expected to learn and I'm grateful for it ... Believe me when I tell you I 've a lot more learning (and reading to do) If I have offended anyone, it certainly was not my intention. (To be honest,  I'm actually embarrassed at how little I do know in comparison with most of the people on this thread.) :-[

 

[2 Cdo]

. I will not debate this topic here because it is digressing from the original topic, and from the 'tripe' comments it will just go in one ear and out the other. There is no point in debating conservative realists.

And here's where I decide to put you on my permanent ignore list. You don't want healthy debate, you want someone to agree 100% with your pre-concieved notions. :

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

And here's where I decide to put you on my permanent ignore list. You don't want healthy debate, you want someone to agree 100% with your pre-concieved notions. :

I got there several pages ago. I think we have a troll here who is a bit more sophisticated than the usual run of the mill bottom feeder but never the less there are some pretty big indicators of "trolling" in the last few posts. Methinks we're wasting our time in this thread. 

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Prodigy,

Please read the entire page of the military's mission on the link that I sent you http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/about/index_e.asp and you will find no dichotomy with what we are saying. 

For a look at Canadian military history, as a university student you should have access to fairly decent library (I used to go to mine just to have a smoke until I discovered that they also had books in there).  Desmond Morton's A Military History of Canada http://www.amazon.com/Military-History-Canada-Desmond-Morton/dp/0771065140 would be a good place to start.  Jack Granatstein and Sean Maloney (both noted Canadian academics with military backgrounds) have put out works in both book and article form with a focus on recent events (since the Second World War).  Again, your library should have the works of these authors.  I'm sorry if it looks like I am dumping work on you, but you did ask and you are in the liberal arts. 

I notice from your postings that you do want to debate with conservative realists and that you will not debate your close-mindedness.  This makes it tough to have a dialogue.  You are not on a pulpit and we are not in the pews.  If you are going to make pronouncements and do not want to listen then you may find yourself a little isolated unless the Communist Party needs another AGITPROP specialist.

Cheers

 

[2 Cdo]

I got there several pages ago. I think we have a troll here who is a bit more sophisticated than the usual run of the mill bottom feeder but never the less there are some pretty big indicators of "trolling" in the last few posts. Methinks we're wasting our time in this thread. 

He/she is definitely not your average moron troll.  I do think there is some smarts in their head, but very little real world experience to temper the university left-wing propaganda they have been spoon fed.

 

[Future Prodigy]

He/she is definitely not your average moron troll.  I do think there is some smarts in their head, but very little real world experience to temper the university left-wing propaganda they have been spoon fed.

At first I was quite offended by your initial post on page 5, and was about to fire back a quick hot-blooded response, but then i came to this post and it made me laugh... solely, because you hit the nail on the head. I can not argue with that!

And if you're putting me on your ignore list because you don't agree with what I'm saying then isn't that hypocrisy at its finest!? I think it rather prude to put someone on a 'ignore' list, whatever that may entail, from the messages i have posted... to each his own i guess, c'est la vie.

Thanks again everyone for your postings, it has been much enlightening.

p.s. What is a troll?! That makes no sense, i come here with honest questions and I'm compared to a mythical character who lives under bridges and kidnaps children!? You guys got some weird sense of humor.