• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Sinking of the Canadian Navy - Macleans

CBH99 said:
I find the statements from Gen. Vance somewhat misleading - albeit certainly not intentionally or with malice.

Can we continue to do what we are doing now, given the resources we have?  Yes.  But only if our requirements continue to be the odd single ship here, single ship there.  A 6-pack of fighter jets, and a company+ of troops to conduct training & liaison operations in Ukraine.

We can do all of that given the resources we have.  We can also muster up a fair number of troops that can be used domestically for natural disasters (floods, forest fires, etc) - as was recently proven with the relatively quick deployment of 1400 members to assist in firefighting efforts.

Can we do more than that, though?  I'm skeptical. 

I'd be curious from people who are still in, and in-the-know, if we could mobilize for another Afghanistan given the resources we have?  Or ramp up for operations in Ukraine (just for example) if required? 

Legitimate curiosity is all.
We could ramp up for a war again, so long as the adversary we are going up against is armed only with sticks and sharpened bits of fruit, like the Taliban, who still caused us enough problems with booby traps, a few small arms and some RPGs, that we left with our tails firmly between our legs and that's exactly what we did in 2011.  Combat Operations in the Ukraine would be completely out of the question given our total lack of Air Defence, Anti Armour, Combat Mobility(think bridging, mineplows, etc), severe shortage of actual Artillery, lack of trucks for CSS, No Attack Helicopters, very little Armour, little to no ISR or Targeting capability, no UAVs. 

Our Army is no more than a very well armed constabulary and if thrown in to a Ukraine type conflict against a peer enemy we wouldn't do so well and would probably suffer a horrific defeat.  Does that answer your question?

Let's not even talk about actual war though, let's talk about Haiti 2010 and the Earthquake.  We would not be able to get ourselves there to help because we have no ships to do so.  Our Supply Ships are gone so what exactly are we going to bring? 
 
That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking, I just didn't want to be the one to verbalize it.  I was hoping I was wrong.
 
CBH99 said:
That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking, I just didn't want to be the one to verbalize it.  I was hoping I was wrong.

It is what it is, no need to hide it.  It's not like it isn't known to our adversaries and allies either.
 
PRE wasn't involved at all in Haiti; that was ATH and HAL.  PRE was in the 18 month refit at the time.

We aren't capable of independently deploying, but realistically we, and most of our allies, aren't capable of any serious action without operating alongside other navies.  Ships cost a lot of money to build.  Spending money on single assets is not politically popular, so not sure why this article's by line isn't signed by Capt. Obvious.
 
Navy_Pete said:
PRE wasn't involved at all in Haiti; that was ATH and HAL.  PRE was in the 18 month refit at the time.

We aren't capable of independently deploying, but realistically we, and most of our allies, aren't capable of any serious action without operating alongside other navies.  Ships cost a lot of money to build.  Spending money on single assets is not politically popular, so not sure why this article's by line isn't signed by Capt. Obvious.

I just rechecked this and you're right.  Weren't Army folk dropped off in Jamaica and ferried over to Haiti by ship?  That must have been a pleasant voyage crammed into a frigate 😄

 
I have a few problems with this article and its conclusions:


1. "Pirates off the coast of Africa? Assisting migrant refugees in the Mediterranean? Evacuating Canadian nationals from a foreign war or disaster? Responding to the growing military tension in the South China Sea? Supporting a United Nations peacekeeping mission? The Canadian Navy is no longer capable of mounting any of these missions without significant help from others."

Our frigates are more than capable of conducting these missions without "significant help". The only help we need is with refuelling, and even then, it almost makes more sense to do it the way we've been doing it; using USN tankers. Why deploy one of your own AORs when the USN already has a ton of them sailing around? Just to show that you can? Other than refuelling at sea, our Frigates have all the capability they need to accomplish these missions.

2. "The frigates are smaller, have a crew compliment of 220 sailors, carry one helicopter, have shorter-range radar, less firepower and far less capable command abilities."

The frigates are longer and wider, and only 300 tons lighter. The fewer crew needed, the better. They have improved, modern 3D radars, have ASuW and ASW capabilities that the 280s lacked completely, and they have superior command capabilities (Link 16). Yes, they lack the Area Air Defence capability of the 280s, and this is something that we sorely need. However, this article makes it sound like the CPFs are a bunch of shore patrol boats.

3. "According to retired officers and naval experts, the RCN has objectively deteriorated to its lowest capability in over 40 years."

I would like to echo what others have said before. Before the first gulf war, Canada had no guided-missile capability. Our weapons and sensors and command capabilities are far beyond what they were 40 years ago. One of our greatest capabilities, which isn't mentioned in this article, is one which is a corner stone of modern navies; interoperabiltiy. Between the technology (Link 11/16), common practices, and frequent joint exercises, RCN units mesh seemlessly with USN task groups.

4. "The loss of the destroyers means the Navy can no longer defend a formation against long-range threats, nor can it provide effective command and control. Without replenishment ships, it’s now impossible to sustain the fleet with the necessary supplies, ammunition and fuel over any distance."

I won't get into tactics, i'll just say it again: interoperability. We can provide effective command and control, so just STFU Maclean's. Finally, the last sentence is also a load of horse crap. It is entirely possibly to provide the necessary "supplies, ammunition and fuel", and I say it again, interoperability.

5. the "Todd/Lindberg classification system"

This list a poorly researched ranking system. Indonesia doesn't have an AORs and has fewer major surface combatants than the RCN. Bangladesh has a few small in-harbour tankers and a small ageing AOR that I doubt they could deploy over seas. It's like they just scanned the internet and looks at the number and type of vessels each navy has, without looking into the more important details: training, capability, and state of repair.

6. this one doesn't really have to do with the article but people quotes in it: "...claims that fixing the Navy would be “just about the top priority” for a Liberal government." and "...Harris promised that improving Canada’s Navy would be a priority of an NDP government."

Yea, we'll see about that after the election.

7. "Many Canadians know that, at the end of the Second World War, the Canadian Navy was the fifth-largest in the world."

I hate hearing this one. Most of that Navy was corvettes and frigates with little to no ASuW or AAW capability. Within about 30 days of the end of the second world war, almost the entire fleet of corvettes and frigates were decommisioned, dropping us much, much, much farther down the list.

/end

I won't go on about what I think we could do to improve the situation. A governemnt department as big as Public Works is not something someone like me can look at from the outside and figure out how to do it better. I will say, that this country lacks the public passion for defence which would enable politicians to take defence spending and procurement seriously.

As I once heard it said, it took us less time to liberate a continent than it has taken us to move NDHQ to a new building 15km away.




 
Lumber said:
One of our greatest capabilities, which isn't mentioned in this article, is one which is a corner stone of modern navies; interoperabiltiy. Between the technology (Link 11/16), common practices, and frequent joint exercises, RCN units mesh seemlessly with USN task groups.
So, we are the USN farm team and can provide ships to support US goals?
What is the answer when our concerns do not mesh with something the US is willing to throw a task group at?
 
So no area/TF-AD (does ESSM in the Mk48s really count?) and no integral replen isn't a bad situation?  ??? 


 
Good2Golf said:
So no area/TF-AD (does ESSM in the Mk48s really count?) and no integral replen isn't a bad situation?  ???

No AD and no resupply.  Are we talking about the Navy or the Army?
 
dapaterson said:
No AD and no resupply.  Are we talking about the Navy or the Army?

Touché!

giphy.gif
 
MCG said:
So, we are the USN farm team and can provide ships to support US goals?
What is the answer when our concerns do not mesh with something the US is willing to throw a task group at?

Haha USN Farm Team!  I love it!

Royal Canadian Navy, Johnstown Chiefs of World Navies

hansonbros_360_240_90.jpg


Good2Golf said:
So no area/TF-AD (does ESSM in the Mk48s really count?) and no integral replen isn't a bad situation?  ??? 

Will have to let the Russians know we have no AD next time we enter the Black Sea so they stop incessantly buzzing us with those jets of theirs!
 
Lumber, the USN has it's own challenges in meeting their own needs without us riding on their coat tails like a leech.  We need to be able to stand up on our own two legs.
 
Good2Golf said:
(does ESSM in the Mk48s really count?) 

WTF ??? ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles) are considered point defence systems, not area air defence. But the Mk48? It's a heavy torpedo, which we don't even carry on ships, only submarines. On ships we carry the Mk46 light torp. So unless I am missing something here, the Mk48 don't carry their own ESSM  :nod:
 
Good2Golf said:

He is clapping way too fast!  That one deserves a slow clap!


scsc.gif


jollyjacktar said:
Lumber, the USN has it's own challenges in meeting their own needs without us riding on their coat tails like a leech.  We need to be able to stand up on our own two legs.

This is exactly what we have been talking about wrt us being our own worst enemy.  Lumber is looking to add another bar I think, even if it means lying about how awesome our gear is.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
WTF ??? ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles) are considered point defence systems, not area air defence. But the Mk48? It's a heavy torpedo, which we don't even carry on ships, only submarines. On ships we carry the Mk46 light torp. So unless I am missing something here, the Mk48 don't carry their own ESSM  :nod:

I know, OGBD, that was the content of the parentheses.  ;) 

I should have also been clearer...I meant the Mk.48 vertical launcher for the CPF's SSM/future ESSM.

RoyalDrew said:
...Will have to let the Russians know we have no AD next time we enter the Black Sea so they stop incessantly buzzing us with those jets of theirs!

:nod:

Well...there is SHORAD (SSM/ESSM to come) and CIWS, but as far as being the TF designated AD capability, that's no longer in our inventory.
 
Good2Golf said:
I know, OGBD, that was the content of the parentheses.  ;) 

I should have also been clearer...I meant the Mk.48 vertical launcher for the CPF's SSM/future ESSM.

:nod:

Well...there is SHORAD (SSM/ESSM to come) and CIWS, but as far as being the TF designated AD capability, that's no longer in our inventory.

I don't really count SHORAD as real AD.  At least not against a real Air Force.  Beside, effective Air Defence is all about layering of effects.  We can do no such thing.

Edit:  I know 80%+ Aircraft are usually killed by SHORAD systems but that's because you have other weapon systems that force the plane to come that low and also because smart-munitions didn't exist.  GPS guided bombs and missiles mean they have less utility because aircraft have more stand-off.
 
RoyalDrew said:
I don't really count SHORAD as real AD.  At least not against a real Air Force.  Beside, effective Air Defence is all about layering of effects.  We can do no such thing.

All arms air defence is the next layer - the boarding party firing their MP-5s at the inbound missile.
 
dapaterson said:
All arms air defence is the next layer - the boarding party firing their MP-5s at the inbound missile.

Lol I can see it now "Sir, I have organized my Air Defence into two layers, 8km and 100m".

You would think we might have learned something from one of our sister navies with recent combat experience (by Naval standards).

cLyox.jpg

HMS Sheffield hit by Exocet Missile fired by Argentinian warplanes, Falklands War
 
I'll roll in for a moment on this one...seems almost in my lane.

The original RIM-7 Sea Sparrow was truly a Point Defense only missile.  That means it'd be capable of shooting down a missile (or aircraft) that's pointed at our ship.

The upgraded RIM-162 ESSM is a much more capable system that is more capable against all types of targets.

Does that make it an AREA air defense capable system?  Nope.  Not in the least.  However, the Wikipedia (open source) info on ranges are as follows:

RIM-7 : 10 nm (19km)
RIM-162 : 27+ nm (50+ km)

Additionally, if we bought in, the RIM-162 has the ability to be put in a quad pack, instead of the single cell missiles, so instead of 16 cells holding 16 missiles, you could get 16 cells holding 64 missiles.  BIG leap.

All that said, the ESSM is faster, longer ranged, and more capable than the Sea Sparrow, but it is not considered an area defense capability such as the SM-2 missiles provided. 
(Note the SM-2's open source range is listed as 40-90 nm, (74-167 km) or 65-100 nm for the ER version)
NS



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-162_ESSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-7_Sea_Sparrow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-66_Standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-67_Standard
 
Dimsum said:
Ouch. 

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-sinking-of-the-canadian-navy/

Indeed.

The best part? Only one small paragraph about the submarines, for a change  :nod:
 
Back
Top