The Spartans Were Morons

[EpicBeardedMan]

If you compare Sparta to any of the Greek states of the day.  Heck you can look at Persia at the time as being way more enlightened by comparison.

Considering the Spartans were supplied BY the Persians........

 

[Remius]

I think one needs to separate the politics of the spartan from the warriors of Sparta.

Except for the fact that Sparta is a warrior culture.  All Spartan citizens were of the warrior class.  The Warriors of Sparta were in fact the politics of Sparta.

 

[Remius]

Considering the Spartans were supplied BY the Persians........

Bought, paid off.   Sparta needed Persian support to further their aims on a few occasions. Not to mention the mercenaries they would send over.  Or when they tried to go after the Macedonians while they were where busy fighting the Persians in Ionia.

 

[Remius]

Wouldn't the historians of the day, really be more like the MSM of the day? 

All things considered there is an element of truth to what you just said. 

I’m not 100% sure but I’m pretty sure just about anything contemporary was written by non Spartan writers.  Herodotus is generally considered a pretty good source though.  Spartans weren’t much on writing.  Not due to any lack of ability but it goes to the minimalistic aspect of their culture.

 

[Altair]

Except for the fact that Sparta is a warrior culture.  All Spartan citizens were of the warrior class.  The Warriors of Sparta were in fact the politics of Sparta.

correct.  However,  while warriors in the field,  I can get exemplifying them,  outside the battlefield,  not so much.

Greece would have been better served completely unified with the spartans as their shock troops. There is a case for having brutal,  tough,  born and breed warriors, but there needs to be a creative,  productive,  innovative society backing them.

That said,  for those in a warrior profession the spartans are a inspiration.

 

[dapaterson]

correct.  However,  while warriors in the field,  I can get exemplifying them,  outside the battlefield,  not so much.

Greece would have been better served completely unified with the spartans as their shock troops. There is a case for having brutal,  tough,  born and breed warriors, but there needs to be a creative,  productive,  innovative society backing them.

That said,  for those in a warrior profession the spartans are a inspiration.

Of course, some of us object to being called "Warrior" instead of "Soldier".

https://angrystaffofficer.com/2016/12/14/stop-calling-us-warriors/

 

[Remius]

correct.  However,  while warriors in the field,  I can get exemplifying them,  outside the battlefield,  not so much.

Greece would have been better served completely unified with the spartans as their shock troops. There is a case for having brutal,  tough,  born and breed warriors, but there needs to be a creative,  productive,  innovative society backing them.

That said,  for those in a warrior profession the spartans are a inspiration.

Interesting topic. 

To be honest, one can admire their martial prowess.  But it had a major flaw.  No flexibility or innovation at all.  The Thebans bested them at Leuctra despite being outnumbered by the Spartans.  Almost unheard of. Against a well trained disciplined army that employed combined arms and flexible tactics they collapsed completely. 

I would prefer to draw my inspiration as a soldier from the Macedonians or the Romans as I also object to us being called warriors and it soldiers.

 

[Kat Stevens]

My point was that, individually, Spartans were the honey badgers of the ancient world. Tough, aggressive, tenacious, and fearless . To say that the soldier was the embodiment of the state is to say the same about us. We serve(d) the state, we are not the state.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My point was that, individually, Spartans were the honey badgers of the ancient world. Tough, aggressive, tenacious, and fearless . To say that the soldier was the embodiment of the state is to say the same about us. We serve(d) the state, we are not the state.

They were also slavers and staunch, anti-democratic tyrants. Regardless, all of Greece messed it up during the Peloponnesian Wars, of course.

 

[Remius]

My point was that, individually, Spartans were the honey badgers of the ancient world. Tough, aggressive, tenacious, and fearless . To say that the soldier was the embodiment of the state is to say the same about us. We serve(d) the state, we are not the state.

Not debating about them being tenacious, agressive and fearless.  I agree. 

The difference is that Spartan citizens were all warriors.  Spartans were the state.  You could not rule, vote, own land etc etc unless you were a Warrior. The embodiment of the Spartan state was the Spartan warrior.


It isn’t the same at all about us.

We serve the state but we are not the state. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

They were also slavers and staunch, anti-democratic tyrants. Regardless, all of Greece messed it up during the Peloponnesian Wars, of course.

It was common practice to sell defeated enemies into slavery for all Greek armies.  So what if they were anti democratic?  By and large, so was the rest of the ancient world.

Not debating about them being tenacious, agressive and fearless.  I agree. 

The difference is that Spartan citizens were all warriors.  Spartans were the state.  You could not rule, vote, own land etc etc unless you were a Warrior. The embodiment of the Spartan state was the Spartan warrior.


It isn’t the same at all about us.

We serve the state but we are not the state. 

That's all I'm saying, the individual soldier had many qualities worthy of admiration, his politics notwithstanding.

 

[Altair]

It was common practice to sell defeated enemies into slavery for all Greek armies.  So what if they were anti democratic?  By and large, so was the rest of the ancient world.

That's all I'm saying, the individual soldier had many qualities worthy of admiration, his politics notwithstanding.

technically nobody in the ancient world was truly democratic when one considers that the 50 percent of the population missing the dangly thing between their legs couldn't vote.

And the individual spartan soldier had many qualities to be admired,  and that's where it ends. I don't think people with a spartan logo or motto are advocating for a political system like the spartans.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That's all I'm saying, the individual soldier had many qualities worthy of admiration, his politics notwithstanding.

That much could be said of many soldiers over the centuries.  My dad respected and admired the German Paras they kept meeting in Italy.  He said they were magnificent opponents.

 

[Remius]

I think though the premise of the OP’s article though is that most people wearing Corinthian helmet logos and Spartan patches has more to do with 300 and Gates of Fire than any legitimate interest in Spartan History.  I remember when we covered Ancient Greek and Roman history in high school and 90% of the class were asleep.

It’s similar to those people that got SPQR tattoos on their arm after seeing Gladiator saying it was the sign of the Roman legion because the movie said so.  The irony being that slaves and barbarians wore tattoos, not Roman citizens or soldiers.

That being said, it’s a harmless thing one way or the other.

 

[Remius]

That much could be said of many soldiers over the centuries.  My dad respected and admired the German Paras they kept meeting in Italy.  He said they were magnificent opponents.

Same reason I cheered for the empire in Star Wars  ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

Same reason I cheered for the empire in Star Wars  ;D

How could you not, with Brianne of Tarth in all that shiny StormTrooper stuff? :nod:

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

People wear patches or icons of things that they feel they can relate to or associate with, it's no different then riding around in a hummer with a spray painted Punisher logo on it..people by large like to associate themselves with certain things...look at tattoos for example. One person's tattoo might seem ridiculous to you but they associate themselves with it for a reason. My  :2c:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As I recall Spartans were quite happy to take their company from men or women while out and about.

 

[Remius]

As I recall Spartans were quite happy to take their company from men or women while out and about.

Very common in Hellenistic societies at the time.

The Thebans, the ones who defeated the Spartans at Leuctra and ended their influence in Greece had a unit comprised of male couples.  They trampled the Spartans' best and killed their king as well at Leuctra.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Surprised nobody noted, in the "Spartan are the State" topic that in Sparta, it was the women who owned the land and buildings and made the political decisions under the rule of the Queen. The men, well, they were the labourers tilling the land when not at war and soldiers.