"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[GregC]

I just wish we could issue everyone from clerk to infantry really high speed stuff, talk about uniformity!

Hmmm, this is the best, most logical idea I've heard in a long time!

MICH, Oakley, Arcteryx, Hanwag and Trijicon for all!

Oh well, we can dream can't we?

 

[The_Falcon]

I don't think its possible for one boot, one vest/rig to suit an entire military. The pair of boots that works for my feet may be useless for others...

I wish they would just give out a yearly allowance for these kind of things.

I think a yearly allowance is the best idea out there.  Cheaper in the long run (less space required in stores/warehouses),  fewer issues if a company should go belly up or have issues meeting our needs,  fewer delays in getting new kit (due the lengthy "R&D" process, and subsequent tendering).  Sure that might mean a couple of officers/SNCOs might actually get posted some place where they have to work  >, but I think we (the CF) will survive.  

In my mind its pretty simple, CDS puts out a list of approved companies for boots and aftermarket load carriage (with appropriate info regarding what colours you are permitted, ie CADPAT only, CADPAT/MARPAT, etc.).  For boots, you are entitled to claim x amount of money per annum to replace your boots, which you do via CF 52 (which is not unlike how most other organizations work).  For load carriage it could be every 2-3 years you can make a claim (this based on the reasoning that a QUALITY chest rig/vest etc, should last about this long even with heavy use/abuse).  Once you make your first claim for a load carriage item, you would be required to return your issue TV, which would then be returned to stores, and held for intial trades courses, and emergency/temp issue only (until you get your aftermarket vest replaced).  After a suitable phase in period, all CF pers would be required to purchase their own gear, once trades training is completed, that way only a small number of CF TVs need to be kept in the supply system (ie for course, emerg/temp issue).

 

[daftandbarmy]

WRONG.. the CF doesn't care what kit you need replaced, especially in the case of destroyed kit. Several soldiers have had their   "gucci" (I hate that term) kit blown up,burnt etc and it was replaced with an issued vest. When a soldier gets wounded the kit if blood contaminated is destroyed no matter what. If you break your non issued rig  you have 2 options, repair it or get issued a CF Tac vest. This is war not the parade square or garrison damaged kit is replaced no matter the reason or what it is (you WILL get the CF issued equivalent).
The lack of forward thinking here is astounding,the issued vest is not adequate for our needs ..period I will never order a soldier under my command to use it if they choose to replace it with something better, regardless of the consequances of some dinosaur being offended.
 

OK, so here's the plan: We clone MG34. Then we parachute all the MG34 clones into every unit on ops in the CF right now. That's GOT to be easier than actually getting a chest rig that works to the troops who need it now, and backloading the rest to be used by LOBs like me in the mother country.  ;D

 

[MG34]

I think you miss my point MG34. I'm not saying that the issue Tac Vest is the be all and end all. What I'm saying is that the CF will not pay for your ruined non issue vest. Like you said, you'll get an issue vest.
My point is that you, as you well know, are given a kit list. If that list included the CF issue tacvest, then the soldiers best bring it. That's all I'm saying.
I'm all for improving kit, weapons etc, within reason.
Boots are an example. I gather the issue desert boot is not adequate, so lets get something that does work.

I have seen some asinine kit lists in my day, but I do see your point. Every man is responsible for his equipment that should be the bottom line, once again I am loathe to have troops haul around a useless piece of kit that will not be used just to satisfy a list that was arbitrarily made up in Canada. I guess that we will not come to a common ground on this issue, perhaps my views are too extreme but my methods have been proven in combat so I will stick to what I know works.....BTW don't even get me going on weapons

 

[mudgunner49]

I have seen some asinine kit lists in my day, but I do see your point. Every man is responsible for his equipment that should be the bottom line, once again I am loathe to have troops haul around a useless piece of kit that will not be used just to satisfy a list that was arbitrarily made up in Canada. I guess that we will not come to a common ground on this issue, perhaps my views are too extreme but my methods have been proven in combat so I will stick to what I know works.....BTW don't even get me going on weapons

No really, go on... 8)


blake

 

[armyvern]

OK, so here's the plan: We clone MG34. Then we parachute all the MG34 clones into every unit on ops in the CF right now. That's GOT to be easier than actually getting a chest rig that works to the troops who need it now, and backloading the rest to be used by LOBs like me in the mother country.  ;D

You know what, I don't think you'll find an individual on this site who does not agree that we need a suitable chest rig set-up for our deployed personnel. That includes me.

That all being said, I've already explained the "whys" behind the legalities of carrying the useless TV into theatre.

We may not like it, but those are the legalities within which we get to work ... and to deploy. And, quite frankly, sometimes the CoC (no matter how high or what posn they fill) has ZERO say in the matter due to federal regulations which govern us. What exactly, is so difficult about that to understand?

 

[OldSolduer]

Thank you MG34...we have common ground.
I agree that the kits lists are a bit too aribtrary, however, I do see your point about lugging useless gear into theater. I make up my own kit list for my company, with the provision that more experienced soldiers may adjust that list as they see fit, with the concurrence of their NCOs'. Being Reservists, we have to make sure that our soldiers carry the kit they need to survive, so a little more supervision is the norm.
I did hear that some rotos were told to bring winter whites. Truth? If that is true, why not hold a stock of whites in KAF?

 

[MikeL]

I did hear that some rotos were told to bring winter whites. Truth? If that is true, why not hold a stock of whites in KAF?

Yup, winter whites were part of my kitlist for going over.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You know what, I don't think you'll find an individual on this site who does not agree that we need a suitable chest rig set-up for our deployed personnel. That includes me.

That all being said, I've already explained the "whys" behind the legalities of carrying the useless TV into theatre.

We may not like it, but those are the legalities within which we get to work ... and to deploy. And, quite frankly, sometimes the CoC (no matter how high or what posn they fill) has ZERO say in the matter due to federal regulations which govern us. What exactly, is so difficult about that to understand?

I guess it's just UOR envy. If we can whistle up a fleet of C17s and Leo 2s at short notice, why not a couple thousand chest rigs?

 

[logan7979]

My two cents...

Deploying with the vandoos in 09, infantry coy, crew commander, one of the few bilingual MCpls. Yes the vandoos are strict, id say more than any other regiment... weird i know

1- whats up with defending those in charge of equipment testing... BA in this, Masters in this... the only currency that matters these days is combat experience in Afghanistan. Fact is, if i were Supreme Commander i would get a few intelligent Sgt`s from PPCLI, RCR, and the R22R,  put them in a room, and throw equipment at them... no complicated tests required... as the civilian military machine in north america will take care of the specifics for us, we should just buy. There is so much equipment out there, stop designing stuff, let others do the work.

2- Im going to be purchasing aftermarket kit. Not sure how i will get away with it, but i will.  One thing is certain, i might not get to train with it, but what can you do. I will go as far as to get charged, too bad

To CTS... Start drafting an aftermarket validation process to be done at the platoon level, you guys are not stupid and are more than qualified to validate general army equipment, but what were you thinking with the tac vest... oopsy!

you could always undergo my validation process, it  consists of deploying to kandahar in an infantry coy with only your validated equipment and nothing else.  i would never wish that upon someone... imagine wearing those polar underwear in Afghan...

Cplc
2R22R

 

[OldSolduer]

I would agree with logan7979. I would add to that working group of infanteers,,,,a C9 Gunner and an M-203 gunner. That is about the size it would need to be. Any bigger, and you'd need a Col from NDHQ, a Major from CLS staff and a Capt from LFWA to supervise it....joking!!
How about the modular stuff/ MOLLE I beleive it's called, where the soldier can design his own vest, and change it according to mission if need be.

 

[deh]

ARMOUR
-Plate Carrier (eagle ciras, probably the best) w/ all the armour attachments, groin, neck, shoulder, deltoid etc... $1000ish
-Various MOLLE pouches, mag holders, first aid, utility, $200 ish
-ESAPI plates (our regular sapi plates dont make the cut...)  $500 (x2)
-MICH helmet (this is a luxury, it weighs 2lbs and can easily be fitted with a night vision bracket) Also better ballistic protection, can stop a 9mm, and has deflected point blank 7.62 impacts... mind you the force put him in a coma, but he woke up, regained sight and is somewhat normal these days. $500
-Forearm Protection (these are nice because they are as solid kevlar gloves, which extend down your arm offering very good frag protection) $250

Oh wow dude... this is really unnecessary.  The issued stuff is going to be the only thing you are allowed and really does the job anyway.  Despite some of the more forward thinking peoples attitude to boots and some rigs people have zero sense of humour about armour.  Especially hanging out of the CC hatch your main threat isn't small arms fire. 

I'd look into the BLISS/BLU kit however, I'll even sell you mine if you don't mind washing it.  In anycase id be taking a wait and see approach for a month or two.  New neck protector (a newer much more substantial one) as well as deltoid armour is already in the system and being issued, though most of the mounted guys from my coy (including myself) took the wings and what have you off when we rode in vehicles as we had a nasty habit of getting hung up on everything.

just as a fun aside we had guys in their polar fleece pants over there, the sandbox got freezing cold in December and February this year.  thanks for the pickup by the way Herschel, was good seeing you at 3rd BN.

 

[armyvern]

I guess it's just UOR envy. If we can whistle up a fleet of C17s and Leo 2s at short notice, why not a couple thousand chest rigs?

I agree with you -- why do you always assume that I don't??

That's a question that only the very highest levels of the CF can answer for you. Go ahead and ask them.

 

[armyvern]

I guess it's just UOR envy. If we can whistle up a fleet of C17s and Leo 2s at short notice, why not a couple thousand chest rigs?

UOR envy??

UORs are staffed up and are recommended at the highest levels of the CoC ...

Whether or not they actually come to be though is an entirely different matter. Recommendation rests at the highest levels of the CF, but, implementation and purchase is entirely dependant upon the approval of Feds outside of the CF.

What part of this is so hard to understand?

UOR envy my ass.

 

[OldSolduer]

Regarding non issue kit:
I was given to understand that DND has to go through another federal government department who will let the contracts once the equipment wanted is decided upon . Is this true?
I was also informed that only Canadian manufacturers may supply footwear to the CF....again is this truth?

:warstory:Anybody old enough to remember the first Canadian attempt at a ranger blanket? It was made out of old rainsuit material....it was like a horse blanket. Apparently DND had a wholde whack of this material left over ,and Department of Supply and Services said you DND WILL use this before you get anything else. True or not?

 

[armyvern]

Regarding non issue kit:
I was given to understand that DND has to go through another federal government department who will let the contracts once the equipment wanted is decided upon . Is this true?
I was also informed that only Canadian manufacturers may supply footwear to the CF....again is this truth?

:warstory:Anybody old enough to remember the first Canadian attempt at a ranger blanket? It was made out of old rainsuit material....it was like a horse blanket. Apparently DND had a wholde whack of this material left over ,and Department of Supply and Services said you DND WILL use this before you get anything else. True or not?

True as per the post that immediately preceeded this one ... whether it's a UOR item or not.

 

[Farmboy]

I was given to understand that DND has to go through another federal government department who will let the contracts once the equipment wanted is decided upon . Is this true?

Yes.  If the purchase is over $25,000 it must then be approved by Public Works.  If it's a general item that lots of companies can provide, it will go out for tender (if PW approves the purchase).  If it's a sole source item, PW must still approve it and then puts it out on MERX to see if anyone else can make the same thing.

I've had a few cases where I am the sole source, the client has jumped through all the hoops, done all the tests required then sent it to PW for approval only to have it rejected because there is a similar product/name in the system.  The client then must then provide intimate details about the product that makes it different from the one in the system. Then we wait again for PW to approve it or not.

 

[OldSolduer]

Army Vern and Farmboy...thanks for the clarification, in a nutshell, how the system works.
As you all can see, the idea that we can change TacVests in a few months is erroneous.
Remember...politics will play a part in the selection of new kit, for instance:
Can it be made in Canada? In the case of foot wear....yes a product that suits our purposes can be made in Canada.
Can a Canadian company get a license to manufacture it? C7 Family is a case in point.
Can we maintain it in Canada? CF-18 case in point.

As you can see, politics and economic spinoff to Canadians play a big part in any major purchase.

 

[Farmboy]

As you all can see, the idea that we can change TacVests in a few months is erroneous

What it comes down to for alot of guys is the silly orders that only issued kit should be worn.  Replacing the TV could be years away as we have all seen with procurement however it should come down from the top that aftermarket kit is acceptable to wear.

Sure, throw in some limits on it but be realistic.  I've noticed comments like "approve aftermarket kit BUT only if it looks like this...." 

WTF?

A basic limit on the rigs purchased is the warrenty that is provided with the rig.  TAG, HSGI, ATS, TT, ICE and others all have lifetime warrenties, meaning if something happens to your rig we/they will fix or replace it.  If your buying airsoft replicas, your not going to get that warrenty or sevice if something happens.

Make sure it can carry what you need to.

 

[Gunner98]

When we ask a mechanic to fix our car do we tell him what brand of tools to use?  When we ask a surgeon to do a vasectomy do we tell him what brand of instruments to use.  Why do we tell a soldier who is being asked to imminently/potentially pay the ultimate sacrifice what magazine pouch holder he can wear or what boots he can die in?