"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[McG]

When we ask a mechanic to fix our car do we tell him what brand of tools to use?

It's not the same.  When you want a mechanic to fix your car, you don't buy all the tools for thousands of mechanics to do their jobs.

 

[The_Falcon]

Well Mr Taylor actually replied to my letter, its seem like he was rather annoyed with me and gave me a bit of a lengthy reply
(the late response was due to the message not leaving my outbox until yesterday)

Cpl XXXXX has probably not been briefed on op-sec matters, but the decision to alter the number of rounds was a deliberate one that was cleared with CEFCOM. If we give away exact specifics it would give those interested in such matters (insurgents) information they may not already have. The average Canadian only needs to know generalized info, and the thrust of this op-ed was that our Battle Group is the best equipped in the Afghan theatre.
Once Cpl XXXXX has his own tour I'm sure he'll agree.
Thanks for the input.
Scott Taylor.

Condescending twit.

 

[Gunner98]

,It's not the same.  When you want a mechanic to fix your car, you don't buy all the tools for thousands of mechanics to do their jobs.

Exactly, the mechanic has his own tools and brings them to the garage because he is confident and comfortable with them.

 

[Farmboy]

Hey Mr Taylor

For all the Afghans years at war, your telling me they don't know how many bullets our mags hold????   You're right the frig out of er!!!!

 

[RHFC_piper]

Well Mr Taylor actually replied to my letter, its seem like he was rather annoyed with me and gave me a bit of a lengthy reply
(the late response was due to the message not leaving my outbox until yesterday)

Cpl XXXXX has probably not been briefed on op-sec matters, but the decision to alter the number of rounds was a deliberate one that was cleared with CEFCOM. If we give away exact specifics it would give those interested in such matters (insurgents) information they may not already have. The average Canadian only needs to know generalized info, and the thrust of this op-ed was that our Battle Group is the best equipped in the Afghan theatre.
Once Cpl XXXXX has his own tour I'm sure he'll agree.
Thanks for the input.
Scott Taylor.

Condescending twit.

Well... if you decide to write back to Mr. Taylor  in response to his idiocy, you can tell him to cram it with walnuts...  If the insurgents don't know by now, just by looking at us with their own eyes, that we carry more than 5 mags, then I don't believe one troop spitting this info out on MSM in Canada is going to help their int...  pssst.. it's not a secret... we don't hid our rigs in black bags when we walk around the all-seeing population in Afghanistan. 

Mr. Taylor is clown shoes and should learn where his lanes are... 

 

[OldSolduer]

"Mr. Taylor is clown shoes and should learn where his lanes are... "

RFHC_Piper....do you know if he needs a big red nose and fright wig? JOKE!

 

[westie47]

I would agree with logan7979. I would add to that working group of infanteers,,,,a C9 Gunner and an M-203 gunner. That is about the size it would need to be. Any bigger, and you'd need a Col from NDHQ, a Major from CLS staff and a Capt from LFWA to supervise it....joking!!
How about the modular stuff/ MOLLE I beleive it's called, where the soldier can design his own vest, and change it according to mission if need be.

Having a MOLLE/PALS-based system would be perfect. Imagine, a soldier gets issued a base rig and a bunch of pouches (mag, grenade, 203, smoke, radio, first aid, utility, dump, etc, etc). Depending on his job, he configures his rig for it. A C9 gunner may have 3 C9 pouches on his rig and no C7 mag pouches, etc. Some items can still be standardized ie Blow Out Kits, strobe, etc. Now, get this, buddy as a N/S mag pouch, he takes it off and exchanges it. Instead of the whole rig being written off, only a $8 pouch is written off. A lot more mileage for the dollar. Now, Matt can confirm this, DLR has stated emphatically that the way of the future is NOT a modular system. DLR was at 1 VP last summer and had a lengthy discussion with some NCO's who had been in the thick of it on TF 1-06, to a man they all said we need a modular rig. DLR still wouldn't listen. They gave out some trial vests, none of which were modular, save the JTF Patrol Vest (which the CSM got). They were off the shelf Arktis rigs among others.

Buying a scaled down version of the Eagle or Paraclete kits, I can't remember the name,  would be perfect. I was on a course a couple weeks back in the US and there was a SF guy on it, he had the Eagle kit issued. It comes with chest rig, CIRAS, plate carrier, whackload of pouches, all in a carry bag. Now this kit is expensive, but a scaled down version would be perfect. Basically some guy developed the TV over a period of YEARS and it is his legacy before retiring. They will not allow anyone to sully the legacy of the TV, better known as the %60 solution. Any decent company can design and manufacture far better rigs in 6 months.

Remember, at the end of the day, are guys carry too much stuff, that's what DLR says anyway.

 

[Fusaki]

DLR was at 1 VP last summer and had a lengthy discussion with some NCO's who had been in the thick of it on TF 1-06, to a man they all said we need a modular rig.

Funny...

Bravo Coy, 1RCR was trialling new chest rigs down in Texas this past summer. Included was the Arktis, and JTF rig and one or two others.  As the story was told to me, the Bravo boys emphasized the need for for a modular rig but DLR was claiming that the PPCLI guys they spoke to wanted non-modular rigs... :

I know its one of those "It happened to a friend of a friend of mine" stories... but you can't blame me for being suspicious...

 

[PJOsborne]

Hey Mr Taylor

For all the Afghans years at war, your telling me they don't know how many bullets our mags hold????   You're right the frig out of er!!!!

Couldn't have said it better myself. That information is all open-source anyways and a child with half a brain could find it in under a minute on Google.

 

[westie47]

I can speak without a shadow of a doubt that the 1VP guys asked for MODULAR, they even went so far as to invite the owner of Tactical Tailor up to do a gear demo.  That weekend ended with about $5k in sales for TT.

The boys, mostly snr NCO's actually, argued with DLR. I believe a few units got the same gear to trial so to spread the trial around the army a bit.

 

[MG34]

I can speak without a shadow of a doubt that the 1VP guys asked for MODULAR, they even went so far as to invite the owner of Tactical Tailor up to do a gear demo.  That weekend ended with about $5k in sales for TT.

The boys, mostly snr NCO's actually, argued with DLR. I believe a few units got the same gear to trial so to spread the trial around the army a bit.

I can say the same for 1RCR, we have had 1 Shot Tactical and CP Gear here showing their stuff,as well as some guys trying to folg some gagrage made vests. The DLR reps were told in no uncertain terms that the Arktis kit was not suitable as it was not modular.

 

[OldSolduer]

Hello MG34...I'm a naturally suspicous individual. Why would DLR say that VP guys wanted non-modular....and the RCR say modular....hmmm...maybe some pre-conceived notions on DLR part?
Having viewed this debate, I'm thinking that a modular type vest/rig is the way to go...with each soldier being able to place his stuff where he wants it, not where someone thinks it "looks good" and is "Uniform".
Having said that, there are some good reasons why certain items (First Aid ) should be carried in the same spot.
This thread certainly has been eye opening and educational. Thanks!!

 

[Dirty Patricia]

 As the story was told to me, the Bravo boys emphasized the need for for a modular rig but DLR was claiming that the PPCLI guys they spoke to wanted non-modular rigs... :

When DLR came by 1VP to show off the vests that would be trialled (Artkis and improved Tac Vest), they stated 3VP wanted the Artkis vest.  We emphasized  that a modular MOLLE style vest was what was needed.  Their reply to that, as well as the look of the "improved" AR Tac Vest,  didn't leave me feeling very hopeful.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Again, I'll reiterate a very simple fix to this apparently mind-boggling problem DLR is having, in the hopes one of them reads this;

Issued Ballistic Vest + MOLLE = Modular Ballistic plate carrier

This should be sufficient for everyone since you can put what ever the hell you want on it, where ever you want it, and you have to wear the ballistic vest anyway, so why not integrate. 

Ooohh.. look... a few birds with one stone;
- Modular vest
- Versatility
- Reduced weight (now that you don't have to carry extra cordura straps, buckles, etc)
- Cheap fix

I know there has been issues brought up about drivers and such needing to do dismounted stuff as well, but that's the beauty of MOLLE... you can switch stuff around quickly and whenever.

Anyway... $0.02 thrown in; I'm going back to my little hole in the wall.

 

[Fusaki]

Again, I'll reiterate a very simple fix to this apparently mind-boggling problem DLR is having, in the hopes one of them reads this;

Issued Ballistic Vest + MOLLE = Modular Ballistic plate carrier

This should be sufficient for everyone since you can put what ever the hell you want on it, where ever you want it, and you have to wear the ballistic vest anyway, so why not integrate. 

Ooohh.. look... a few birds with one stone;
- Modular vest
- Versatility
- Reduced weight (now that you don't have to carry extra cordura straps, buckles, etc)
- Cheap fix

I know there has been issues brought up about drivers and such needing to do dismounted stuff as well, but that's the beauty of MOLLE... you can switch stuff around quickly and whenever.

Anyway... $0.02 thrown in; I'm going back to my little hole in the wall.

Thats not gonna work, dude.

In a mechanized battalion everyone needs to be able to fit in the turret to do sentry shifts. When your LAV is the cardinal point, guys need to be able to strip down to body armour so they can rotate the gunner and crew commanders out. Nevermind all the small party tasks we do in theatre that require armour, but not 60lbs of other gear hanging off you.

The CIRAS looks like an awsome system, but not practical for most combat arms types.

I'd like to see a CADPAT vest covered in MOLLE webbing. Hold a bunch of different MOLLE pouches in the CQ and push them out to the troops with slings, BFAs, and all the other weapon EIS.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I'd like to see a CADPAT vest covered in MOLLE webbing. Hold a bunch of different MOLLE pouches in the CQ and push them out to the troops with slings, BFAs, and all the other weapon EIS.

I seem to remember troops from *our tour taking their issued TV to a rigger/ex mat tech in Pet (town of), having the pockets stripped and having MOLLE sewn on... Looked issued, worked better.  So, I agree. Simple MOLLE TV/Rig with various issued pouches based on need.  If the MOLLE on the BV won't do the trick, this is the next simplest step in my mind. 

*I have a feeling you and I were on the same tour (3-06).


I also seem to remember, from way back when I had webbing (yeah... I know 1998 isn't way back... well it's way back for me) and the TV was coming into the system, being told it was going to be fully modular.  What happened? 

 

[Fusaki]

*I have a feeling you and I were on the same tour (3-06).

We were both in Charles. Check your PM inbox and look for one from me dated October 23, 2007.

 

[RHFC_piper]

We were both in Charles. Check your PM inbox and look for one from me dated October 23, 2007.

wow... those pieces of shrapnel in me must be aluminum...  My bad.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Here's my reading on the background of why DLR is supposedly saying that the PPCLI wanted the Arktis vest;

Go back to August of 2006 with C Coy 3PPCLI starting its work-up cycle to deploy as part of the 2RCR TF 1-07 BG.  CLS was visiting the unit and held an impromptu Q&A session with the members of the coy.  Among the points raised by the troops was the subject of individual load carriage and the shortcomings of the CF issued Tac-Vest and the concern that they were going to be forced to use what they viewed to be a sub-standard piece of equipment by the BG leadership.  The CLS asked for a proposed solution to this perceived problem and a few outspoken members of the audience suggested a particular model of Arktis vest.  Apparently they stated they didn't need modularity, but rather capacity; All the pouches were large enough to be multifunctional, and most importantly, it allowed them to carry the amount of C7/C8 mags they viewed to be appropriate for dismounted combat ops in Afghanistan.  The CLS then asked that a formal recommendation be drafted as per what the company would like as a UOR for load carriage and that the matter would be looked into.  
CLS then returned to Ottawa and the UOR was sent to his office by C Coy 3PPCLI.  The UOR was then turned over to DLR along with several other UORs being made in respect to load carriage and DLR combined them into what became the 'Mission Specific Load Carriage Trial'.  Now, in DLR's defence, up to this point in time most of the formal/informal requests for future modifications to the tac-vest were along the lines of adopting a MOLLE/PALS/Modular based system.  So, the request they got from C Coy for a fixed pouch setup somewhat took everybody by surpise.

So, whilst everybody likes to point fingers at DLR and say, "What a bunch of (insert explicative)..." the end user community only has itself to blame for providing such differing opinions on what the basis for moving forward should be, i.e. some saying we'd like modular, whereas others are saying we'd like big fixed pouches that can fit a multitude of different things.  

There is some talk of DLR/LFDTS running a 2-3 day load carriage symposium at CTC sometime in either the spring or fall of '08 with representation from the end user community (with a focus on those who conduct dismounted combat ops, as the tac-vest is really their bread & butter) so that some sort of consensus can be formed whereby DLR can begin to write a statment of requirement for an interim load-carriage platform that will be used for operations and the preceding work-up cycle, until ISSP is fielded.

 

[MG34]

Good points, we need to get a united front on this issue, as I seriously doubt that the Canadian version of "Land Warrior" will be fielded in the next 10-15 years. If the load carriage symposium actually happens, of which I have my doubts (prove me wrong DLR ) I hope that it doesn't become another sham like the one for the Tac Vest was. We were told one thing and delivered another so forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical.