The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

[daftandbarmy]

Precisely.  A Sandhurst model that provides officer training, while leveraging the civilian university system for education.  A broad-based education means not drawing a significant portion of the officer corps from any one school.

A revitalized COTC, perhaps?

I believe that would be an excellent option. Cheaper than a gigantic 'bricks and mortar' ball and chain while maintaining a solid connection with the community, academic and otherwise.

 

[bLUE fOX]

On an only slightly related note, I was under the impression that the CAF never actually gave up Royal Roads, and that it was leased to the Royal Roads University in much the same way that CMR was (is? http://www.cfsj.qc.ca/en//). Given that DND is already paying for maintenance and up keep why couldn't they re-lease the school from Royal Roads University, in the same way they're doing for St Jean?

 

[daftandbarmy]

On an only slightly related note, I was under the impression that the CAF never actually gave up Royal Roads, and that it was leased to the Royal Roads University in much the same way that CMR was (is? http://www.cfsj.qc.ca/en//). Given that DND is already paying for maintenance and up keep why couldn't they re-lease the school from Royal Roads University, in the same way they're doing for St Jean?

If they did, they could count on some huge and very public resistance from BC.

 

[Blackadder1916]

On an only slightly related note, I was under the impression that the CAF never actually gave up Royal Roads, and that it was leased to the Royal Roads University in much the same way that CMR was (is? http://www.cfsj.qc.ca/en//). Given that DND is already paying for maintenance and up keep why couldn't they re-lease the school from Royal Roads University, in the same way they're doing for St Jean?

While the CAF Government of Canada may be the owner of the property, like any other landlord, they would still have to abide by the terms of any lease they have with the tenant.  The length of the lease, amount of rent, responsibility for maintenance, etc, are probably all detailed in that document, though it is likely very favourable to Royal Roads University.  The link only itemizes the amount that was paid (by the GOC in 2014) in lieu of municipal taxes - $126,659.31.

 

[Good2Golf]

Why would a rather successful rejuvenation of a storied institution wish to allow the Federal government to attempt to revert function from the current gamut of internationally highly-regarded post-graduate degrees back to undergrad degrees and an attempt to relive a past that might not be a fit for the miltary's current officer educational requirements.

The difference is an institution that moved on, respected heritage, but chose a new leadmark and moved forward with conviction and excellence, compared to an institution wherein alumni ensured the direction of the day was tacitly ignored, and with to some, a less than wholly convincing case for action, 'fix' a problem that hadn't ever been identified objectively and, more importantly, validated.  RMCC/CMRC by all measures provides the military officer output required and supports the CAF's mission in support of the Official Languages Act.  "Ou se trouve la problème?"

???

G2G

 

[Navy_Pete]

In other words: requirements definition requires a strong military presence; procurement, not so much.

ff topic:

Having just been involved in a successful large procurement, I would disagree.  Having uniformed personnel directly involved changed the project dynamic a lot, ensured it focused on real operational requirements for when we were vetting technical needs, and also generally kept it rolling as we could be a little more... assertive?  then our civilian counterparts.  As well, kind of a hard to quantify factor, but as we were buying something for the Navy, being able to actually be there, in uniform, while talking about the sailors that wanted the new kit they were bidding on, seemed to help put a human face onto a large procurement for a big company, and I think that they genuinely wanted to put together a quality bid to support the troops in their own way, and also got the ODGs working on it to make a bit more of an effort.  Could have all been window dressing of course, but I'm cautiously optimistic. 

Also, back at an operational unit, I was immediately able to make use of the contacts I had made and knowing who to call in ADM(Mat), was able to get help very quickly to source hard to find parts, technical support etc.  Mileage will probably vary from individuals, but my personal experience it worked out really well to spend time in LSTL as a juniour officer.  Intend to take the same operational experience back to LSTL to work on some specific projects.

Do get the argument you are making in general though; there are a lot of people bouncing around Ottawa jobs that could easily do it as civilians.  However the workload keeps increasing while they are cutting civilian staff levels, at least with the Navy and all the big ship projects.  For that reason they are using a lot of military guys to plug the holes.  They have made transitioning to civilians a lot easier recently as well, so I think the majority of the replacements for the folks that do eventually retire will be filled with military members that jump into the flat faced civy roles.  Serving CAF members probably made up a large portion of the recent EG 6, Eng 4 and Eng 5 pools they ran, and that's a good way to keep the valuable military experience without taking up a uniform position, rather then getting some random kid off the street.

 

[Lumber]

Why would a rather successful rejuvenation of a storied institution wish to allow the Federal government to attempt to revert function from the current gamut of internationally highly-regarded post-graduate degrees back to undergrad degrees and an attempt to relive a past that might not be a fit for the miltary's current officer educational requirements.

The difference is an institution that moved on, respected heritage, but chose a new leadmark and moved forward with conviction and excellence, compared to an institution wherein alumni ensured the direction of the day was tacitly ignored, and with to some, a less than wholly convincing case for action, 'fix' a problem that hadn't ever been identified objectively and, more importantly, validated.  RMCC/CMRC by all measures provides the military officer output required and supports the CAF's mission in support of the Official Languages Act.  "Ou se trouve la problème?"

???

G2G

I'm having trouble telling if this is an argument in support of or against the colleges...

 

[Good2Golf]

Why would Royal Roads University want to be a party to meddling by the Feds?  Let CMR alumni and academia spearhead the reversing of previous decisions...

 

[McG]

Having just been involved in a successful large procurement, I would disagree.  Having uniformed personnel directly involved changed the project dynamic a lot, ensured it focused on real operational requirements for when we were vetting technical needs, and also generally kept it rolling as we could be a little more... assertive?  then our civilian counterparts.  As well, kind of a hard to quantify factor, but as we were buying something for the Navy, being able to actually be there, in uniform, while talking about the sailors that wanted the new kit they were bidding on, seemed to help put a human face onto a large procurement for a big company, and I think that they genuinely wanted to put together a quality bid to support the troops in their own way, and also got the ODGs working on it to make a bit more of an effort.  Could have all been window dressing of course, but I'm cautiously optimistic. 

Sounds like the job of the PD staff and DMRS.  That is not to say there should be no military presence in the PM staff, but it should be very small and not the PM him/herself.

 

[bLUE fOX]

Regarding my statement about RRMC, I didn't mean to imply that we should go back to it, and your right, given what sounds like a remarkable deal with the federal government, they'd be silly to want to give it up. All I meant to point out was that the government still owned it, and given the move towards the retro that has been creeping up, it might be something they consider. There seems to be no qualms about leasing back facilities like Gimili, Partage la Prairie, Cornwallis or CMR to fill functions, I would think that if they wanted to Royal Roads would be no different.

As for whether or not the CAF needs the service colleges, as a current student of RMC (paying cash our of pocket for the experience), I'm told that a number of schools are less expensive, but given I can't take the time off work for full time education, RMCC is the best option available to me.

If the CAF is paying for members to go full time, to me it makes sense to send them else where, especially if it is cheaper.

One final thing, I have heard it said that it is unhealthy for universities to hire professors who were either educated by the hiring school or who had taken their entire education at a single institution, as this would lead to academic stagnation.

 

[captloadie]

There is one other benefit that comes from the military colleges. The networking and bonds made there often last throughout one's career. Yes, it may be the old boys club, but at times, it helps get things done. With more and more joint exercises occurring, it can make liaising across elements much easier when you know the guys or gal on the other end of the e-mail phone. You wouldn't get that with a purely civilianized ROTP/DEO plan.

It also used to be a way to weed out those that just couldn't cut it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There is one other benefit that comes from the military colleges. The networking and bonds made there often last throughout one's career. Yes, it may be the old boys club, but at times, it helps get things done. With more and more joint exercises occurring, it can make liaising across elements much easier when you know the guys or gal on the other end of the e-mail phone. You wouldn't get that with a purely civilianized ROTP/DEO plan.

It also used to be a way to weed out those that just couldn't cut it.

Believe me, the British military has a similar, well functioning 'old boy's/girl's' network without the added cost of a 4 year degree program.

And they do some pretty good weeding at RMA Sandhurst too.  :nod:

 

[dimsum]

Believe me, the British military has a similar, well functioning 'old boy's/girl's' network without the added cost of a 4 year degree program.

And they do some pretty good weeding at RMA Sandhurst too.  :nod:

I'd say we do too - it's called the Mess (for the 20 people or so who still use it for Fri after-work drinks).