Toast to/Table for the Fallen (merged)

[dapaterson]

I was raised on Binyon's For the Fallen; following grace, the senior member (serving or retired) present would read out:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

And the dinner would begin.  The "new" ceremony is not among my favourites; that said, I know it is meaningful to quite a few who serve now, and I can overlook my slight distaste to provide them with some small measure of comfort.

Tradition is something that we've done for a long time for reasons we may not remember (or even know); but every tradition has to start somewhere.

 

[armyvern]

I do believe it is.

I jumped all over a Captain, who thought it would be a good idea to have this at the Troops Christmas Dinner a few years ago. He also tried to do this using his own initiative......he did not fare well.

It's been at every Mess Dinner and Christmas Dinner that I've been to for years now.  Base-side, Regiment, Gagetown, Kingston, Petawawa.  'Twil be tomorrow too --- as I set it up today.

 

[dimsum]

And the dinner would begin.  The "new" ceremony is not among my favourites; that said, I know it is meaningful to quite a few who serve now, and I can overlook my slight distaste to provide them with some small measure of comfort.

Tradition is something that we've done for a long time for reasons we may not remember (or even know); but every tradition has to start somewhere.

Exactly.  Traditions change and while the ones who remember "the times before" may not like it, it will persevere if it means something to the ones who are serving now and in the future. 

I, for one, am not a fan but will also put aside my distaste for it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Out of curiosity, last night I pulled out my old "Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Armed Forces", a pretty authoritative book written by E.C. Russell* and published in 1980. I re-read the whole section on the Mess and on supplementary Mess customs and traditions. The "supplementary" toast to Fallen Comrades is mentioned but nothing about a table for the missing comrades, with one exception: The 12e Régiment Blindé du Canada, at Trois-Rivières, Qc, which has a tradition of " a special table is always set in front of the head table, and the place setting of crystal, china and cutlery are laid in reverse, In this way, the regiment honours its dead".

However, as has been said above, customs and traditions evolve in time. Some change, some are abandoned and some are adopted. I think that for a military as "young" as Canada's this evolution is normal. We originally adopted British military traditions wholesale, but ever since WWI, have started adding our own, deleting those that didn't make sense for Canada and have adopted some new ones when circumstances warranted. However, before a new "tradition" is adopted and Canadianized, I think it is important that the "powers that be" (i.e. the RSM's in the Army, the Fleet Chief of Signals in the Navy and ??? in the Air Force) decide what is appropriate and what is not and under what  agreed circumstances the new custom or tradition is to be observed, and how.


* For those who do not know Mr. Russell, he served honourably in the R.C.A. and the R.C.N. in WWII, then stayed on in the reserves until 1960. He became the official historian of the R.C.N. until unification, at which time he was "absorbed" into DHist. staff as a senior historian for the CAF.

 

[Pusser]

I think it is important that the "powers that be" (i.e. the RSM's in the Army, the Fleet Chief of Signals in the Navy and ??? in the Air Force) decide what is appropriate and what is not and under what  agreed circumstances the new custom or tradition is to be observed, and how.

Such things should not be left to these "powers" alone.  In my opinion, too many things like this (e.g. dress) have been "hijacked" by the chiefs and/or "abdicated" by the officers.  We need more input on these matters from all quarters.

 

[Rifleman62]

Oldgateboatdriver:

However, as has been said above, customs and traditions evolve in time. Some change, some are abandoned and some are adopted. I think that for a military as "young" as Canada's this evolution is normal. We originally adopted British military traditions wholesale, but ever since WWI, have started adding our own, deleting those that didn't make sense for Canada and have adopted some new ones when circumstances warranted.

A Tradition is anything done twice.

:christmas happy:

 

[armyvern]

Exactly.  Traditions change and while the ones who remember "the times before" may not like it, it will persevere if it means something to the ones who are serving now and in the future. 

I, for one, am not a fan but will also put aside my distaste for it.

And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this newish tradition does mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.

 

[NSDreamer]

And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this newish tradition does mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.

I wish I could get this point across to the PO I work with. He's obsessed with the old Batallions and pre-unification traditions that have fallen by the wayside, yet looks down on the new stuff that younger troops are doing now...I don't think people understand traditions can be started, and if they have meaning and significance to the current members, well that's how you build a 'storied and tradition laden' armed forces.

 

[Loachman]

Perhaps if the older traditions were properly explained and taught...

I understand and accept evolution, but do not accept invasive species that kill off native ones.

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps if the older traditions were properly explained and taught...

I understand and accept evolution, but do not accept invasive species that kill off native ones.

That is where the CO and RSM publishing the Unit "Bibles", or whatever they may be called, that tell the unit history and its customs comes in handy for all ranks. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this newish tradition does mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.

I saw this at a Navy mess dinner about four years ago for the first time.  When they made a toast to 'absent friends and fallen comrades' and had the empty place setting I happened to have a few friends deployed in various trouble spots at the time, had recently lost a colleague to suicide, and had a number of friends struggling with what they had been through.  May be part of all doing the basic training together and having friends in other elements from the start of your career, but to me this was a good thing to do, as it was a suitable reminder of friends that weren't able to enjoy something simple like a dinner with peers.  With common training at various points of careers and more 'purple' deployments across elements, this may be more common then previously.  Not a big fan of the long explanation/toast, but the simple toast and the moment of silence was pretty solemn.

At the time, I didn't care if it was an 'Americanism' (and still don't); it immediately meant something personal to me and resonated with a lot of my peers in the same boat.  Traditions have to start somewhere, so taking a second to think about people that didn't make it home whole and appreciating what you have seems like a good one to start, especially when we are so fortunate to live in a safe and stable country.

Here's one more to absent friends; missing you this xmas season. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Such things should not be left to these "powers" alone.  In my opinion, too many things like this (e.g. dress) have been "hijacked" by the chiefs and/or "abdicated" by the officers.  We need more input on these matters from all quarters.

I will agree, but it's the CO who has the final say. I, for one, do not need an empty table to be reminded of the sacrifices of our soldiers. There are many that agree and some that disagree.

 

[Haggis]

Traditions are born, live and die with changing societal, cultural and behavioural norms.  This one will eventually run it's course and be supplanted with something else, just like the dinner tradition of lighting the smoking lamp died off.

I'm still not completely clear on it's origins.  As long as it continues to be done tastefully, I'm OK with it.