Todd and Sarah Palin to divorce

[1feral1]

I have a hard time believing the idea that Saddam Hussein had any intention of doing anything but keeping himself looking strong domestically.  He knew Iran would not be in any mood to fight him, nor anyone else, but if it had been done right in the first place it'd be a non-issue anyhow.

Iraq is better now then it has been in the Saddam era. He was ruthless, and 100s of thousands were tortured and killed.

Numerous UN sanctions so the people suffered.

Now its teething problems for a new democratic nation, experiencing freedom for the first time.

I am glad I was there.

Sooner or later something had to be done, and the outcome rather bloody is over now and people are free. Thats what its all about.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm interested to see what your sources are for this claim... Iraq had no nuclear program, it's military was dillapadated, there was absolutely no new equipment, and the Air Force was buried in sand dunes.  They had no military capability whatsoever to do anything than control their own people.  And where does china fit into this? china can't arm the Chinese military at this time.

The only reason the UN inspectors found out about his nuke program is because his brother inlaw defected and spilled the beans on the program. Just prior to the invasion Iraq was caught building offensive rockets, shortly after the invasion some of his scientist dug up data and important bits from their garden where they had been ordered to hide them. The reality was that no one really knew what was going on, likely including Saddam as telling him that the program you are running is not working might get you executed or worse. As I mentioned the sanctions were failing the USA either had to admit failure in containing him or invade, did they leap onto any excuse to do it, yes likely as the world doesn’t care about how much Iraqi’s or Kurds suffered, the world wouldn’t lift a finger to save them. Under Bush Iran was likely sh*tting themselves worried about an attack, under Obama they will be laughing as they know the US is very unlikely to act.

When people say the invasion was a bad thing, ask them what their solution to the dilemma was, 9/10th will not have a clue about what was even going on, much less thought about it. I do wish that Bush had not listen to Rummy and had given Bremer the boot. Maintaining the Iraq army from the get go and taking the slow approach to de-baathication would have reduced a lot of the problems in my view. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Under Bush Iran was likely sh*tting themselves worried about an attack, under Obama they will be laughing as they know the US is very unlikely to act.

 

[observor 69]

When people say the invasion was a bad thing, ask them what their solution to the dilemma was, 9/10th will not have a clue about what was even going on, much less thought about it. I do wish that Bush had not listen to Rummy and had given Bremer the boot. Maintaining the Iraq army from the get go and taking the slow approach to de-baathication would have reduced a lot of the problems in my view.

"On May 23, 2003 Bremer issued Order Number 2,[28] in effect dissolving the entire former Iraqi army and putting 400,000 former Iraqi soldiers out of work."  :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bremer#Disbanding_of_the_Iraqi_Army

 

[tomahawk6]

The old army and police were a security risk to a new Iraqi government. We had to clean the slate and start over. In fact we did such a poor job of vetting the police/army that we had to start over after MG Eaton was fired. The Army had ceased to exist after the invasion being a draftee force they just went home. The Republican Guard and security services just went underground. The core of which we have been killing since 2003. They have little future in a free Iraq and no incentive to lay down their weapons.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The only reason the UN inspectors found out about his nuke program is because his brother inlaw defected and spilled the beans on the program. Just prior to the invasion Iraq was caught building offensive rockets, shortly after the invasion some of his scientist dug up data and important bits from their garden where they had been ordered to hide them. The reality was that no one really knew what was going on, likely including Saddam as telling him that the program you are running is not working might get you executed or worse. As I mentioned the sanctions were failing the USA either had to admit failure in containing him or invade, did they leap onto any excuse to do it, yes likely as the world doesn’t care about how much Iraqi’s or Kurds suffered, the world wouldn’t lift a finger to save them. Under Bush Iran was likely sh*tting themselves worried about an attack, under Obama they will be laughing as they know the US is very unlikely to act.

Can you source any of this really? This seems like something I would read on FOX news or something. Even during hte recently released interviews with Saddam he readily admits that there was no nuclear or WMD programs... they pretended to have them o save face in Iraq and to project power to the Iranians.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Who cares either way?!! It happened.

Lets move forrward, this "he said, she said" is loooooong past the shelf best due date.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The old army and police were a security risk to a new Iraqi government. We had to clean the slate and start over. In fact we did such a poor job of vetting the police/army that we had to start over after MG Eaton was fired. The Army had ceased to exist after the invasion being a draftee force they just went home. The Republican Guard and security services just went underground. The core of which we have been killing since 2003. They have little future in a free Iraq and no incentive to lay down their weapons.

Well there not much point going back to topic as it appears the story was false, however Tomahawk brings up an interesting subject, should the US maintained the Iraq army and Revolutionary Guard or disbanded them? My take was to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. A semi-functioning army could have kept them busy and might have been useful guarding border regions on the Iranian side.

Bird Gunner, you should read the UNSC reports, I think it was the Feb 2003 one were Han’s Blix asks the question: “What are they hiding”  The discovery of the long range rocket is in their reports as well, not to mention there was lot’s of footage of it at the time. Saddams brother inlaw defection is well known as was his information on the nuke program. He eventually went back, and was killed by Saddam and/or his goons. I personally would not trust anything Saddam said even at the end, he was a man that always played an angle. You should go to the Library and take out the book written by his personal Physician, a good look at why the Iraqi regime didn’t know what was going on in it’s own country.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... I think it was the Feb 2003 one were Han’s Blix asks the question: “What are they hiding”  The discovery of the long range rocket is in their reports as well, not to mention there was lot’s of footage of it at the time. Saddams brother inlaw defection is well known as was his information on the nuke program. He eventually went back, and was killed by Saddam and/or his goons...

At the risk of dragging us even further off topic: I seem to recall that there was a broad general consensus - including Blix and France and pretty much everyone - that Saddam had chemical weapons. He had, after all, used them on his own people. (And against the Iranians?) There was some dispute about current chemical weapons and potential nuclear weapons but the doubt was not about his trying to acquire WMDs, the doubt, such as it was, was about how successful he might have been.

I think that as it became more and more evident that the US planned to go to war - despite an equally broad general consensus against that course of action - the consensus about Saddam being up to no good began to crumble. Politics always triumphs.

 

[Roy Harding]

...- that Saddam had chemical weapons. He had, after all, used them on his own people. (And against the Iranians?) ...

He used them against the Iranians during the '80 - '88 war.  I saw the results.

He also used them against his own people - although I was not a personal witness to the aftermath there.

 

[Xiang]

At the risk of dragging us even further off topic: I seem to recall that there was a broad general consensus - including Blix and France and pretty much everyone - that Saddam had chemical weapons. He had, after all, used them on his own people.

I don't think there was any real belief that Saddam had NO WMD.. They were the weapons arsenal the US helped him build which he then used on the Kurds and Iranian army.

These weapons were, after the invasion, discovered to be nothing more than the agents sitting in rusted munitions.

The war was trumped up on Saddams supposed active weapons programs, which turned out to be false.

The weapons found in the warehouses were never called the smoking gun because they were the weapons we all knew he had.. not weapons that were a result of his non existent weapons program the CIA and Bush administration claimed he had.

 

[observor 69]

The old army and police were a security risk to a new Iraqi government. We had to clean the slate and start over. In fact we did such a poor job of vetting the police/army that we had to start over after MG Eaton was fired. The Army had ceased to exist after the invasion being a draftee force they just went home. The Republican Guard and security services just went underground. The core of which we have been killing since 2003. They have little future in a free Iraq and no incentive to lay down their weapons.

Conflicting Views

Though Mr. Bremer was the senior civilian official in Iraq, General McKiernan, the senior American military commander at the time, had a very different view on how to raise a new Iraqi military.

American commanders had hoped that Iraqi units would stay in their deployment areas and surrender en masse instead of running away. While Mr. Bremer argued that desertions meant that the Iraqi Army had disbanded, General McKiernan believed it could be re-established by recalling the soldiers as well as some generals and senior officers who commanded them.

“We knew they had either gone home or come out of uniform,” said General McKiernan, who was in charge of the land forces during the invasion and was recently chosen to lead the NATO force in Afghanistan. “The idea was to bring in the Iraqi soldiers and their officers, put them on a roster and sort out the bad guys as we went.”

At the Central Command, Lt. Gen. John P. Abizaid, who served as the deputy commander, had a similar view. He told associates that Arab armies were traditionally large to keep angry young men off the street and under the supervision of the government. For General Abizaid, a three-division force was a good starting point, but he wanted to expand the force to as close to 10 divisions as possible.

As Mr. Bremer and Mr. Slocombe began to prepare their decree, one important question raised by the Pentagon was whether General McKiernan was on board. Mr. Slocombe assigned the task of determining General McKiernan’s position to Col. Greg Gardner, an Army officer on his staff who has since retired from the military.

Mr. Bremer’s headquarters was in the Green Zone in central Baghdad, while General McKiernan’s was at a base near the Baghdad airport several miles away. Colonel Gardner said that there were problems with telephone communications but that he finally reached a member of General McKiernan’s staff who told him that the general accepted the decree.

“I got the impression that Lieutenant General McKiernan was not all that keen about the course of action,” Colonel Gardner said, “but was clearly told that he did endorse the draft.” Colonel Gardner added that he could not recall the name of the staff officer he spoke with.

General McKiernan, however, asserted that he neither reviewed nor backed the decree. “I never saw that order and never concurred,” he said. “That is absolutely false.”

Lt. Gen. J. D. Thurman, who serves as the Army’s chief operations officer and was the top operations officer for General McKiernan at the time, had a similar recollection. “We did not get a chance to make a comment,” he said in an e-mail message. “Not sure they wanted to hear what we had to say.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/world/middleeast/17bremer.html?pagewanted=print