Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[OldSolduer]

Imagine if some meglomaniac got a hold of one of these...

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I have one at home.

 

[dapaterson]

Imagine if some meglomaniac got a hold of one of these...

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#SchitzophrenicStaffOfficer

 

[markppcli]

Not necessary but I wouldn't call it ridiculous. It gives instant feedback to the CO on who has signed what when paperwork arrives on his desk. He can see orange for the CSEO, Blue for OPS, Green for XP and know that it's gone through all the different people it needs to without trying to figure out who signed what.

There is no difference in that the XO signs in green for this exact reason, and in the army I believe there is a green pen used somewhere as well (Adjt? Majors? OC?) not sure which position/rank.

If only there was some other way to indicate who was who… like a series of symbols corresponding to sounds that when linked together formed some kind of identifying set of sounds unique to that person. Probably won’t catch on.

I’ve personally never seen anyone sign anything with anything but blue in the army. Usually the CO is able to discern who’s who’s by the printed names.

 

[Furniture]

On the plus side fountain pens with catridges are still widely available, and much better than previous ones which tended to randomly explode. I got one for fun and genuinely enjoy the textile feedback of using it compared to computers, and find it sticks better in my head.

I do all of my inspection notes with pen and paper, because I also find that writing helps me to remember the details. I'm also maybe a bit odd in that I prefer to have paper notes to look at while typing my reports, as I find it easier than switching tabs.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

On the plus side fountain pens with catridges are still widely available, and much better than previous ones which tended to randomly explode. I got one for fun and genuinely enjoy the textile feedback of using it compared to computers, and find it sticks better in my head.

A few years ago I sailed in two ships as part of Fleet Staff. I did NETP and obtained NCDs. A couple of MARS Os took me out to lunch before the sail and gave me some advice on life on ship. So before I embarked I bought a bathrobe (never owned one) and a fountain pen (also never owned one). I have terrible penmanship and lose them all the time, but five years later I still have that fountain pen (and the bathrobe - fantastic pieces of kit those are). Something about having to be careful about smudges makes me pay more attention when I use the fountain pen.

To bring the thread full circle, when I was a CO a year later my Chief HRA did not love that I signed documents in black (since that was the colour I liked for my fountain pen) - they felt that blue was better since it was obvious when it was a photocopy or not. On matters of principle I stand like a rock and on matters of fashion I go with the prevailing wind so I switched to blue for my fountain pen. And then the pandemic happened and I learned about PKI etc.

Still like my fountain pen. Some RCN traditions are on the money. At least that one.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

If only there was some other way to indicate who was who… like a series of symbols corresponding to sounds that when linked together formed some kind of identifying set of sounds unique to that person. Probably won’t catch on.

I’ve personally never seen anyone sign anything with anything but blue in the army. Usually the CO is able to discern who’s who’s by the printed names.

There was a General at LFCA HQ, I do not recall which one it was but ( Hall or Stewart) he signed things off in green ink. If you got a piece of paper with green ink on it you knew it was to handled quickly. No one else was allowed green ink there.

 

[markppcli]

There was a General at LFCA HQ, I do not recall which one it was but ( Hall or Stewart) he signed things off in green ink. If you got a piece of paper with green ink on it you knew it was to handled quickly. No one else was allowed green ink there.

Surely “this is from General Green Ink” would have had the same effect ?

 

[OldSolduer]

Surely “this is from General Green Ink” would have had the same effect ?

We were the same in 2VP.

Green ink meant Niner had seen it.

 

[ModlrMike]

A few years ago I sailed in two ships as part of Fleet Staff. I did NETP and obtained NCDs. A couple of MARS Os took me out to lunch before the sail and gave me some advice on life on ship. So before I embarked I bought a bathrobe (never owned one) and a fountain pen (also never owned one). I have terrible penmanship and lose them all the time, but five years later I still have that fountain pen (and the bathrobe - fantastic pieces of kit those are). Something about having to be careful about smudges makes me pay more attention when I use the fountain pen.

To bring the thread full circle, when I was a CO a year later my Chief HRA did not love that I signed documents in black (since that was the colour I liked for my fountain pen) - they felt that blue was better since it was obvious when it was a photocopy or not. On matters of principle I stand like a rock and on matters of fashion I go with the prevailing wind so I switched to blue for my fountain pen. And then the pandemic happened and I learned about PKI etc.

Still like my fountain pen. Some RCN traditions are on the money. At least that one.

I sign in blue because I'm old enough to remember when we had Gestetner machines and it allowed one to differentiate between the copy and the original. Old habits die hard.

 

[ueo]

There's two real categories of traditions.

Official and unofficial. Some of the unofficial stuff may have been started from the top, but I'd say most is bottom up. The official stuff, by nature of the fact that it's got regulations or orders backing them up is usually top down, but may be categorizing stuff that initiated as bottom up.

Of those, the unofficial are far more legit. They're the things we as a group keep doing because we keep wanting to do it. Things like crossing of the line, moose milk at Christmas, commanders giving out coins. No one's mandating that we do those things; they just kinda happen because we keep wanting to do them. Heck, even the ones that I think are kinda stupid, like the trend stolen from the Americans of calling each other shipmate in the RCN, even if you've never served nor never will serve on the same ship as the person.

For the top down stuff, the question needs to be asked, would we still keep doing this if we weren't required to do so? If so, it's a bonafide tradition. If not, it's just something that we do because we're told to. If we stopped mandating remembrance day ceremonies from the top on down, do you think that we'd still end up commemorating the event? Absolutely.

If we stopped mandating the wear of headdress outdoors, do you think that a hell of a lot of people would go around hatless? Yeah, probably (temperature dependant). If we stopped mandating saluting of senior officers, how common would that practice become? Probably fairly rare (personally I'd still make a point to throw a high five up to those I personally respect, but would not for those I either don't know or don't respect).

If the only reason that a tradition still exists is because there's a rule for it, then how healthy is that tradition really? To what degree is that practice being done solely for the sake of momentum? This is when we need to ask ourselves what other benefit we get out of mandating said tradition. Is the juice worth the squeeze here? Do we cause more harm by having that tradition be a requirement than any benefit we get out of it?

3 Mech Cdo- Borne in a storm. Unofficial "still in a fog".

 

[FSTO]

I sign in blue because I'm old enough to remember when we had Gestetner machines and it allowed one to differentiate between the copy and the original. Old habits die hard.

I have a photo of my signature (in blue ink) that I use from time to time.

I used the PKI for a document from Sask Power. They didn’t accept it.

 

[MJP]

I used the PKI for a document from Sask Power. They didn’t accept it.

Why would they? They have no access to the certificates to determine it is valid. That is one of the the underlying principle of a PKI signature

Although, it is silly as you can just as easily fake a wet signature, used your saved signature or use any number of programs that allow you sign documents electronically and they likely would have accepted it

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Surely “this is from General Green Ink” would have had the same effect ?

A lot of paper work required everyone who read it to just check the box they read it. The General actually checked the boxes that he read the Routine orders, and checked that he paid for his coffee that month. All in Green, if he could take the time to read them, meant you had the time to read them and check off

 

[FSTO]

Why would they? They have no access to the certificates to determine it is valid. That is one of the the underlying principle of a PKI signature

Although, it is silly as you can just as easily fake a wet signature, used your saved signature or use any number of programs that allow you sign documents electronically and they likely would have accepted it

Good to know.

There is a lot of trust required to keep things on the up and up. No wonder there is a lot of fraud out there.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Lol @FSTO I love that this has turned into a pen thread lol

 

[MJP]

Lol @FSTO I love that this has turned into a pen thread lol

It wouldn't be army.ca if we didn't derail on minutia. It was either that someone was going to propose a wild org chart that has no basis on reality to help us adjust our traditions. Just a matter of time

 

[dimsum]

Lol @FSTO I love that this has turned into a pen thread lol

It's still technically a "tradition" so as far as thread drift goes, this has been pretty close to topic

 

[Halifax Tar]

It wouldn't be army.ca if we didn't derail on minutia. It was either that someone was going to propose a wild org chart that has no basis on reality to help us adjust our traditions. Just a matter of time

And the inevitable injection of Army Reserve structuring and napkin ideas.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It's still technically a "tradition" so as far as thread drift goes, this has been pretty close to topic

It's an interesting one as that it's kind of driven from top down in some cases, bottom up in others with only partial participation. I think it's stupid on ship for HODs, useful in some cases for XO (like when HOD corrections get corrected), and the context for the General signing public things off is an interesting one.

Being able to visually identify one person on hardcopy is useful; having 10 different combos is just visually distracting and redundant, as doesn't take long to recognize people's handwriting.

 

[Underway]

There you go. The Org Chart you all wanted....