Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[Humphrey Bogart]

Not necessary but I wouldn't call it ridiculous. It gives instant feedback to the CO on who has signed what when paperwork arrives on his desk. He can see orange for the CSEO, Blue for OPS, Green for XP and know that it's gone through all the different people it needs to without trying to figure out who signed what.

Or they can just look at the signature block, see it's been signed and trust that by the time it's gotten to their desk, trust that the half a dozen hands it's gone through have also done their jobs and looked at it

I know, very difficult in the Navy.

There is no difference in that the XO signs in green for this exact reason, and in the army I believe there is a green pen used somewhere as well (Adjt? Major? OC?) not sure which position.

This isn't a thing.

 

[MJP]

Not necessary but I wouldn't call it ridiculous. It gives instant feedback to the CO on who has signed what when paperwork arrives on his desk. He can see orange for the CSEO, Blue for OPS, Green for XP and know that it's gone through all the different people it needs to without trying to figure out who signed what.

There is no difference in that the XO signs in green for this exact reason, and in the army I believe there is a green pen used somewhere as well (Adjt? Major? OC?) not sure which position.

It is pretty silly, if a CO (or anyone) can't tell who signed a minute/note then there are larger issues

CAwise, there might be some local customs regarding pen colour and have met some individuals who always had to signed or write a note/minute in a certain colour but that is far and few between. Most ppl can't be bothered to care what colour the ink is when they write.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It is pretty silly, if a CO (or anyone) can't tell who signed a minute/note then there are larger issues

CAwise, there might be some local customs regarding pen colour and have met some individuals who always had to signed or write a note/minute in a certain colour but that is far and few between. Most ppl can't be bothered to care what colour the ink is when they write.

Or they use <checks notes> a computer

 

[Furniture]

Or they use <checks notes> a computer

Why would someone use a PKI e-signature that's damn near impossible to fake, when you can use coloured pens and signatures that anyone could fake?

 

[NavalMoose]

Why would someone use a PKI e-signature that's damn near impossible to fake, when you can use coloured pens and signatures that anyone could fake?

Exactly, where's your sense of adventure?

 

[dimsum]

Why would someone use a PKI e-signature that's damn near impossible to fake, when you can use coloured pens and signatures that anyone could fake?

But what if the power goes down?!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!!!?!

To be honest, it's more "what if people forget their PKI password?" at this point.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think I'm good with the status quo but if I'm going to be forced to go to a mess dinner I'm happy just to ask the PMC permission for cultural reasons; pretty hard for them to say no.

Plus my mess kit pants don't fit my quads anymore (went from skinnny to slightly less skinny) so would rather buy a formal kilt, as the quote I got for the pants was basically a remake with the original gold ribbon.

I wasn't being serious lol

Or they can just look at the signature block, see it's been signed and trust that by the time it's gotten to their desk, trust that the half a dozen hands it's gone through have also done their jobs and looked at it

I know, very difficult in the Navy.

This isn't a thing.

That stupid pen color thing... I've seen EOs and XOs have near break downs because they lost their colored pens.

This is chicken shit stuff that pops up when its been too long since you've been shot at as an organization.

 

[dapaterson]

Or they use <checks notes> a computer

Look, if we streamline a process and eliminate covering memos, how will junior staff learn to write the covering memos we're eliminating?

 

[dimsum]

Look, if we streamline a process and eliminate covering memos, how will junior staff learn to write the covering memos we're eliminating?

What's a covering memo?

 

[Remius]

The only coloured pens I’ve used are for map traces, correcting something and maybe the odd graffiti on a white board….

 

[Furniture]

I wasn't being serious lol



That stupid pen color thing... I've seen EOs and XOs have near break downs because they lost their colored pens.

This is chicken shit stuff that pops up when its been too long since you've been shot at as an organization.

I was told by a NCIOP that sailing through the South China Sea with HMAS Balarat and HMCS Ottawa beside us was just as dangerous as being in Kandahar... Because the PLAN was tailing us, and they could shoot at any time...

The navy has it's own dangers and does good work, but there are some people who lose touch with reality.

 

[RangerRay]

Why would someone use a PKI e-signature that's damn near impossible to fake, when you can use coloured pens and signatures that anyone could fake?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I was told by a NCIOP that sailing through the South China Sea with HMAS Balarat and HMCS Ottawa beside us was just as dangerous as being in Kandahar... Because the PLAN was tailing us, and they could shoot at any time...

The navy has it's own dangers and does good work, but there are some people who lose touch with reality.

I've heard the same crap.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I was told by a NCIOP that sailing through the South China Sea with HMAS Balarat and HMCS Ottawa beside us was just as dangerous as being in Kandahar... Because the PLAN was tailing us, and they could shoot at any time...

The navy has it's own dangers and does good work, but there are some people who lose touch with reality.

That is hilarious!

I sailed 300ft by a Chinese Militia Vessel in the Spratly Islands. There was a Chinese sailor having a smoke on the deck and I went out on the bridge wing and waved at him, he waved back.

Improving International Relations box checked!

I wasn't being serious lol



That stupid pen color thing... I've seen EOs and XOs have near break downs because they lost their colored pens.

This is chicken shit stuff that pops up when its been too long since you've been shot at as an organization.

I won't lie, any of the times I had difficulty in the Navy, it was usually due to my blatant lack of respect for any of its traditions I deemed retarded . This would seriously irritate my Superiors

I'm in a much better head space now that I work in the private sector where the only concern is how much $$$ you make.

But what if the power goes down?!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!!!?!

To be honest, it's more "what if people forget their PKI password?" at this point.

That's why we have 4 DGs.

One of my last OOD shifts in the Navy, there was a planned power outage. I was the only one in Harbour that had prepped for it. Was hilarious watching HMCS Ottawa trying to get their power back .

 

[Underway]

Or they can just look at the signature block, see it's been signed and trust that by the time it's gotten to their desk, trust that the half a dozen hands it's gone through have also done their jobs and looked at it

I know, very difficult in the Navy.



This isn't a thing.

Like hell it isn't. I've seen more then one Adjt flash out their green pen with relish on more then one occation. It may have gone by the wayside but I have seen it over the years.

Or they use <checks notes> a computer

Msg's require an approved and signed paper copy before they go out electronically. As well as a bunch of other paperwork still requires actual paper before the electronic ones are sent out.

As for signature block there is only one signature block on Msg's the CO's. So everyone else who has to be in the info chain needs to sign the paper copy.

One of my last OOD shifts in the Navy, there was a planned power outage. I was the only one in Harbour that had prepped for it. Was hilarious watching HMCS Ottawa trying to get their power back

This is why Engineers are the best OOD's. We know when they all are without having to check the msg traffic. That's also an EO mistake. Should have briefed the team that it was coming.

 

[Furniture]

Like hell it isn't. I've seen more then one Adjt flash out their green pen with relish on more then one occation. It may have gone by the wayside but I have seen it over the years.


Msg's require an approved and signed paper copy before they go out electronically. As well as a bunch of other paperwork still requires actual paper before the electronic ones are sent out.

As for signature block there is only one signature block on Msg's the CO's. So everyone else who has to be in the info chain needs to sign the paper copy.


This is why Engineers are the best OOD's. We know when they all are without having to check the msg traffic. That's also an EO mistake. Should have briefed the team that it was coming.

That's exactly the problem, the navy is still operating like it's 1941 when it comes to messages. All of that message traffic can be handled electronically, and should be.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Like hell it isn't. I've seen more then one Adjt flash out their green pen with relish on more then one occation. It may have gone by the wayside but I have seen it over the years.

That is most definitely not a thing in the RCR or any Infantry Regiment that I know of for that matter. Had someone tried to make it a thing, I can assure you the other Officers would have mocked and ridiculed that person incessantly. Especially at the mess

Msg's require an approved and signed paper copy before they go out electronically. As well as a bunch of other paperwork still requires actual paper before the electronic ones are sent out.

As for signature block there is only one signature block on Msg's the CO's. So everyone else who has to be in the info chain needs to sign the paper copy.

See @Furniture comments

This is why Engineers are the best OOD's. We know when they all are without having to check the msg traffic. That's also an EO mistake. Should have briefed the team that it was coming.

Agreed

 

[Halifax Tar]

That's exactly the problem, the navy is still operating like it's 1941 when it comes to messages. All of that message traffic can be handled electronically, should be.

You stop that! What we need is email AND messages.

 

[dimsum]

Msg's require an approved and signed paper copy before they go out electronically. As well as a bunch of other paperwork still requires actual paper before the electronic ones are sent out.

I guess this is tangentially "tradition"-oriented, but is that because of policy (I'm assuming NDSODs) or tradition?

Orders can be e-signed using PKI.

Edit: Yes, I think we violently agree here. Something something "200 years of tradition..."

 

[Navy_Pete]

I guess this is tangentially "tradition"-oriented, but is that because of policy (I'm assuming NDSODs) or tradition?

Orders can be e-signed using PKI.

Edit: Yes, I think we violently agree here. Something something "200 years of tradition..."

It's a weird shipboard thing, all the unclass messages are released with e-signatures (ie a digitally signed email with the attached soft copy to the message centre) in most other places. DId that on ship with some routine admin ones though, so it's somewhat context dependent.

For any messages that aren't UNCLASS though it's frankly just easier to walk around a hard copy as CSNI access for the reviewers is hit or miss, and then you can get people to sign stuff at where ever they are. Pretty common to grab people on treadmills, on the bridge, or having a coffee break somewhere, or after hours actually shake the CO in their rack for release if required. I was always jealous of the people that could wake up and fall right back to sleep, as it usually takes me an hour or so.