Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[btrudy]

@Lumber I couldn't care less about the historical ties to the RN, and think singing Heart of Oak and celebrating the age of sail is stupid, my objection is more that this is even on anyone's radar given the state of the RCN, where we don't have enough people for the ships we currently have. Best case a few CPFs self retire in the near future so we can remember what it's like to have adequate personnel on a ship outside of deployments.

But being concerned over the celebration of one colonial power over another from over a century before we were a country is a terrible reason to do it, especially when it's so vague the lyrics could refer to anything. We have better things to fix than to worry about the lyrics on a song you don't even hear when it's played for a march, and as tunes go it's an easy one to stay in step with on parade, so does the job well enough to leave it alone.

I keep hearing 'we can do these things concurrently', but after almost 20 years, I don't see a lot of substantive/effective changes but a lot of frequent things done on window dressing BS. Unless it's something that our allies tried, told us it didn't work... then we jump in and fully commit without a plan and act surprised when we get the same bad outcomes.

We can work on seperate things at the same time.

Realistically the issue here is that the areas that you're expressing outrage about us not making progress on are largely things that are really hard to fix; or at least really hard to fix given the manner in which we handcuff ourselves based upon decisions from Treasury Board and other governmental departments.

While the window dressing stuff isn't really impacting progress on those fronts; you're seeing a lot of these initiatives not only because we've got different people working on different things, but also because they're relatively simple things to accomplish. It's easy to get a new march to replace Heart of Oak. It's not easy to fix recruitment or retention when we're not given the tools to adequately do so.

 

[btrudy]

The British Empire has a legacy - sure what empire doesn't?

If only you denounced China and oh lets see - Russia with the same enthusiasm...

I'll wait.

...

I didn't think I needed to do so, because those empires haven't significantly influenced Canadian military culture and traditions. You know; the Canadian Armed Forces being that thing that this site is devoted to talking about?

I've got plenty of criticism for China and Russia, but they don't come up on this topic because it's irrelevant.

 

[Remius]

...

I didn't think I needed to do so, because those empires haven't significantly influenced Canadian military culture and traditions. You know; the Canadian Armed Forces being that thing that this site is devoted to talking about?

I've got plenty of criticism for China and Russia, but they don't come up on this topic because it's irrelevant.

Slavery worldwide was largely ended because of the British Empire. The British Empire also ushered things in like individual rights, industrial innovation and a slew of other things.

Google “Suttee” and you can see something that British colonialism ended as well.

How do you think WW2 would have gone without the remnants of that Empire?

It may have some blemishes but it also has its triumphs.

What particular Canadian Military Tradition do you find offensive and why?

 

[Navy_Pete]

@btrudy I disagree, things like this are a totally unnecessary distraction, and our track record at real change for things within our authority is fairly crap. This will eat bandwidth that could be better spent doing just about anything else, and then it will become yet another thing for uptight traditionalists to moan about.

The ops tempo is brutal, the ships are in awful shape, and we've got years of work to fix some core trades, so I really fail to see how any effort on this couldn't be better spent doing something relevant to supporting the sailors in some fashion. If you want to talk about perception, go tell someone junior worried about how to pay bills that the RCN is changing their march and see how that goes. It's a completely unnecessary self goal.

Plus, based on the NWO moustache pin, which is both stupid (based on the milestones) and aesthetically awful, I fully expect whatever they choose as a replacement to be garbage, and then continue to hear HoO anyway as some kind of stupid protest. This is really some more wardroom wankery.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Soup is a great tradition; one of the best things we do for morale in the RCN.

Do you just serve soup at lunchtime or is there some kind of fancy ceremony?

 

[btrudy]

@btrudy I disagree, things like this are a totally unnecessary distraction, and our track record at real change for things within our authority is fairly crap. This will eat bandwidth that could be better spent doing just about anything else, and then it will become yet another thing for uptight traditionalists to moan about.

The ops tempo is brutal, the ships are in awful shape, and we've got years of work to fix some core trades, so I really fail to see how any effort on this couldn't be better spent doing something relevant to supporting the sailors in some fashion. If you want to talk about perception, go tell someone junior worried about how to pay bills that the RCN is changing their march and see how that goes. It's a completely unnecessary self goal.

Plus, based on the NWO moustache pin, which is both stupid (based on the milestones) and aesthetically awful, I fully expect whatever they choose as a replacement to be garbage, and then continue to hear HoO anyway as some kind of stupid protest. This is really some more wardroom wankery.

Any effort... on the part of DHH, which is their literal job.

You could argue that they could otherwise be making better changes to other aspects of heritage and honours, but it's an entire organization whose purpose is doing these window dressing things. If you want to be instead making an argument to eliminate their budget and allocate it elsewhere I suppose we could have that discussion, but since they exist we might as well put them to some good use.

 

[Furniture]

Do you just serve soup at lunchtime or is there some kind of fancy ceremony?

Soup is available on the steam line, or in a soup warmer at the 10am stand easy.

 

[FJAG]

Historical revisionisms is a bit of a mugs game don't you think? At what point do we think that historical event, if it didn't happen would make the world a better place.

Columbus not landing at the outer Antilles? So things would be much better now correct? Europeans were then never to discover (for them) an entire Hemisphere, there would be no trans-Atlantic slave trade? So the other slave trade to east would have continued to grow because the demand was still there and there were more than enough African leaders who had no qualms enslaving similar looking people because they could make a buck.

We could go on and on. Heck if it wasn't for the British victory on the Plains of Abraham, you could argue that New France was on the path to oblivion anyways and a newly formed United States would encompass all of North America and at the time took a very dim view of French Catholics to the north. They would have been as ruthless to Les Canadiennes as they were to all the native tribe who stood in the way of the Americans Manifest Destiny.

Harry Turtledove makes a fine living reimagining history. See e.g.

The Two Georges - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just as an aside the RCN Reserve made a very fine recruiting video about a decade and a half ago using this tune.

At least until it was pointed out that there was a tad of a copyright issue with it. It's also a bit hard to march to.

 

[Haggis]

Openly.

Now, it's possible that they didn't complain, but it's also totally possible that they were complaining in private.

It`s also possible they didn`t grasp the significance of that one line... or simply didn`t care.

 

[FSTO]

Harry Turtledove makes a fine living reimagining history. See e.g.

Turtledove is an idjit. He's got a skewed view of Canadian sensibilities.

 

[NavalMoose]

come on. We all know that change must happen for the sake of change.

This is the problem. There is nothing wrong with Heart of Oak, but some "Good Idea Fairy" who wants some bubbles filled is pushing this, possibly under the veil of some perceived slight or insult. The insult is to sensible people that have better things to think about. Not 1 minute of CAF/RCN/DHH time should be spent, no, wasted on this.

 

[RedFive]

Somebody ought to tell the Armoured Corps that My Boy Willie needs the axe...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hey, if you want to reach the younger crowd Tik Tok videos like this are the way to go...

He's a Marine | Remember this disaster? Of course you do. Well, a Marine just got a tattoo inspired by it because of course they did. Story >... | By Task & Purpose | Facebook

108K views, 161 likes, 14 loves, 396 comments, 338 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Task & Purpose: Remember this disaster? Of course you do. Well, a Marine just got a tattoo inspired by it because...

www.facebook.com

 

[OldSolduer]

...

I didn't think I needed to do so, because those empires haven't significantly influenced Canadian military culture and traditions. You know; the Canadian Armed Forces being that thing that this site is devoted to talking about?

Have it your way. I guess I can call down the Danes because they invaded the British Isles and brought great destruction. And you can knock of the smart alec attitude. I know very well what this site is about. Ignored.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Peoples have conquered peoples since before the beginning of time. Soldiering and prostitution, the world's oldest professions. The only reason we don't anymore is our destructive power is so terrifying that it's able to keep us in check.

Trying to impose today's sensibilities on age of sail is simply laughable. And finding offence from what happened in those ages is exactly letting dead people tell you what to do.

I don't mind ditching Heart of Oak but be it for better reason than some nonsensical attachment to the out come of a war who no one has experienced for 200 years or more.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You'll are forgetting a new tradition.......if I'm not whining about something then I'm nothing, and have to judge myself instead of dead folk who can't respond.

 

[dimsum]

And I'm all for getting rid of the saluting women as they cross the brow. That's the type of patronistic sexist bullshit that I'm frankly shocked wasn't eliminated years ago. Now that I think about it, is that one of those things that's an actual regulation, or is it an unwritten rule that's just strictly enforced?

I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was actually written down. I agree that it should be eliminated. If RCN isn't willing to do it because "tradition", CPCC may have some words.

Frankly the only place that holds onto them with a death grip is the naval reserve

As a former Shad I get it. It's like the Army PRes - they safeguard a lot of their traditions more so than the Reg F (think Regimental dress stuff).

Why is that? It's not really a job to them - they willingly join as something to do outside their current job/studies so I'm not surprised that they would be more invested into the culture. Also, for many, it's not a day-to-day thing so the traditions still retain some novelty.

Old wardroom members calling out a mess mate of mine because she was drinking water. She was pregnant. Also, I drink beer out of a bottle, not a glass. Deal with it.

Is that recent? I have not seen that in a long time (maybe the RCAF is more progressive there).

I will admit that not all "new" or borrowed traditions are bad. The empty place at a Mess Dinner, borrowed from the Americans, is a poignant idea after Afghanistan. I think it's not something that needs to be explained every time by the PMC. If the new folks don't know, have a place card and/or have them ask the people next to them.

 

[dimsum]

Do you just serve soup at lunchtime or is there some kind of fancy ceremony?

It's at 1000 as part of "stand easy", essentially a coffee (well, soup) break. But yes, also at mealtimes.

Any effort... on the part of DHH, which is their literal job.

You could argue that they could otherwise be making better changes to other aspects of heritage and honours, but it's an entire organization whose purpose is doing these window dressing things. If you want to be instead making an argument to eliminate their budget and allocate it elsewhere I suppose we could have that discussion, but since they exist we might as well put them to some good use.

It's not even that big of an organization.

I've worked with them before - yes it's "buttons and bows" stuff but they do also deal with stuff like what King Charles would wear, and if we should award X commendation to a foreign military leader or head of state. It's one of those things that you don't want to screw up - not many people would notice the screw-up, but those that do are pretty highly placed.

 

[FSTO]

he empty place at a Mess Dinner, borrowed from the Americans, is a poignant idea after Afghanistan. I think it's not something that needs to be explained every time by the PMC.

I’m not a big fan of the empty table. The mess dinner is a time for good cheer comradeship. If the PMC insists on the table then please skip the preamble, the Sunday toast covers that.

 

[dimsum]

I’m not a big fan of the empty table. The mess dinner is a time for good cheer comradeship. If the PMC insists on the table then please skip the preamble, the Sunday toast covers that.

agreed.