Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[FSTO]

There was no fire and anvil of constant combat to develop a different identity.

The Sheep Dog Navy was a direct result of the difficulties fighting the U-Boats but with the end of the war and massive demobilization most of the lower deckers left the RCN and that core group to push Canadian distinctiveness was no longer there. At the end of the war the big ship Navy was left and having a carrier, cruisers and fleet destroyers was the aim of that group not how to make the RCN more Canadian.

It's kinda funny that Canada, once the darling of the empire (holy crap I'm going back in time) is the one most hell bent on discarding any and all trappings of our ancestors. Meanwhile, you look at the Pakistani and Indian militaries and they have kept (and enhanced IMO) most of the symbols of their most oppressive colonial overlords. The Indian Navy has only recently discarded the George's Cross from their ensign.

Most of this churn for change (IMO) comes from the Canadian inferiority complex. That's a whole different thread.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One of the points of the 1949 RCN mutinies was the Britishness of the RCN.

And one of the recommendations of the Mainguy report was to foster a more Canadian identity. Good read if you haven't already.

The Mainguy Report

Canadians writ large do not like the British style Officers and ORs dichotomy. Or the British class system.

There is a place for our RN heritage but it must not be preeminent or come before our being the Royal Canadian Navy.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The Sheep Dog Navy was a direct result of the difficulties fighting the U-Boats but with the end of the war and massive demobilization most of the lower deckers left the RCN and that core group to push Canadian distinctiveness was no longer there. At the end of the war the big ship Navy was left and having a carrier, cruisers and fleet destroyers was the aim of that group not how to make the RCN more Canadian.

It's kinda funny that Canada, once the darling of the empire (holy crap I'm going back in time) is the one most hell bent on discarding any and all trappings of our ancestors. Meanwhile, you look at the Pakistani and Indian militaries and they have kept (and enhanced IMO) most of the symbols of their most oppressive colonial overlords. The Indian Navy has only recently discarded the George's Cross from their ensign.

Most of this churn for change (IMO) comes from the Canadian inferiority complex. That's a whole different thread.

I think there is a complex relationship between former colonies and their previous rulers. Can't speak to the Indian Navy, but India declared many Battle Honours that their army regiments had been awarded for service under British rule repugnant when they gained their independence. Battles associated with the subjugation of India are not celebrated or recognized. It looks like the various Afghan campaigns and many other colonial era foreign campaigns are non-repugnant so those battle honours can be found on colours and any associated days celebrated. WW1 and WW2 battle honours are also unaffected.

Anyhoo.

 

[FSTO]

Mainguy report was to foster a more Canadian identity. Good read if you haven't already

Don't know if Venture has been teaching this report lately.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think there is a complex relationship between former colonies and their previous rulers. Can't speak to the Indian Navy, but India declared many Battle Honours that their army regiments had been awarded for service under British rule repugnant when they gained their independence. Battles associated with the subjugation of India are not celebrated or recognized. It looks like the various Afghan campaigns and many other colonial era foreign campaigns are non-repugnant so those battle honours can be found on colours and any associated days celebrated. WW1 and WW2 battle honours are also unaffected.

Anyhoo.

I can see their point, however, historical revisionism is a fickle beast. What's repugnant to some was the pride and glory of others. I'm certain the Sikhs and Punjab fighters who distinguished themselves proudly putting down the mutiny at Lucknow would be pretty miffed to know their legacy has been erased under the guise of "progressivism."

So how long until we in Canada see "Batoche" "Fish Creek" "Cut Knife Hill" and "North West Rebellion 1885" picked out of the colours and guidons of the Canadian Army? Where do we draw the line between what was and what is now? Do the 1812 Battle Honours get stripped because it might offend our American Allies (Hint: it doesn't. It's actually a pretty jocular subject of ribbing amongst friends nowadays)?

Nationalism and crafting a distinctly Canadian identity is a lofty goal. Mainly because it's a fallacy. We beg, borrow, and steal from so many different cultures and traditions that it's near impossible to have something distinctly "ours". Hell the flag of our country was stylized off of the RMC flag, that predated the "colonialist and bigoted" Red Ensign by a good 25 years.

If CRCN is big on the RCN to become "Canada's Navy," that's cool. I hope he renounces the "Senior Service" status and right of line privileges too. RCN can fall in behind the RCCS and before the Infantry. It's more historically accurate.

Much like the Water Corporal debacle from a few years ago, this is solving a problem no one asked to fix. This is not revising or adapting a tradition; this is someone with an agenda using their platform to settle a score.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If CRCN is big on the RCN to become "Canada's Navy," that's cool. I hope he renounces the "Senior Service" status and right of line privileges too. RCN can fall in behind the RCCS and before the Infantry. It's more historically accurate.

No quarter given eh ? lol

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The truth hurts. Our H&A is so broken.

Not to anyone in particular, but why should it matter? The whole CAF is broken. There's a hockey sock of more important stuff that has to be fixed before we worry about how to word a toast.

Like what to do with empty uniforms that sit around, trying to one up each other with ridiculous shit, like words to a song. Tradition is for units that are coalesced and professional. Traditions will die like the Messes. Nobody gives a fuck. It's just a job. Tradition is for those that see what they do as a calling, a duty, not a paycheque.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not to anyone in particular, but why should it matter? The whole CAF is broken. There's a hockey sock of more important stuff that has to be fixed before we worry about how to word a toast.

Like what to do with malingerers and meatbags that sit around, trying to one up each other with ridiculous shit, like words to a song.

Its a discussion forum and a topic that was being discussed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Its a discussion forum and a topic that was being discussed.

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's not about the discussion. Run this to a 100 pages if you wish. As you said, it's the topic being discussed, I just gave my opinion of it, like everyone else. Don't get defensive.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Not to anyone in particular, but why should it matter? The whole CAF is broken. There's a hockey sock of more important stuff that has to be fixed before we worry about how to word a toast.

Like what to do with empty uniforms that sit around, trying to one up each other with ridiculous shit, like words to a song. Tradition is for units that are coalesced and professional. Traditions will die like the Messes. Nobody gives a fuck. It's just a job. Tradition is for those that see what they do as a calling, a duty, not a paycheque.

Your sentiment above is reason enough to promote stronger recognition and tradition within the CAF. I didn’t join the CAF to be another PS schlub.

 

[Underway]

Don't know if Venture has been teaching this report lately.

It's taught as a "this is an important milestone in RCN history" but not a "read this a write an essay on it" way. SLQ etc... same sort of thing.

 

[Underway]

If CRCN is big on the RCN to become "Canada's Navy," that's cool. I hope he renounces the "Senior Service" status and right of line privileges too. RCN can fall in behind the RCCS and before the Infantry. It's more historically accurate.

Personally wouldn't give a crap. It's only applicable on Remembrance Day anyways.
I'm sure the RCN will do that when the Army decides that the RCA and Engineers should have right of the line before everyone else. Oh and about a half dozen militia units that can trace their history to 1812 like the Lincoln and Wellend Rgt. But can't have PRes leading the line can we.

I don't think we want to open this can of worms. Lol

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Tradition is the glue that holds things together and makes us unique. They are rally points to be celebrated and bond a unit's personnel.
You can develop and install a new tradition but you can't change a standing one. Otherwise, all the meaning is lost.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Some people like to be part of something with a story; some people like to be part of something with a purpose. Obviously something with both story and purpose is attractive. Those opposed to the purpose will find ways to attack it, and working to subvert and forget the story is one such line.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Sheep Dog Navy was a direct result of the difficulties fighting the U-Boats but with the end of the war and massive demobilization most of the lower deckers left the RCN and that core group to push Canadian distinctiveness was no longer there. At the end of the war the big ship Navy was left and having a carrier, cruisers and fleet destroyers was the aim of that group not how to make the RCN more Canadian.

It's kinda funny that Canada, once the darling of the empire (holy crap I'm going back in time) is the one most hell bent on discarding any and all trappings of our ancestors. Meanwhile, you look at the Pakistani and Indian militaries and they have kept (and enhanced IMO) most of the symbols of their most oppressive colonial overlords. The Indian Navy has only recently discarded the George's Cross from their ensign.

Most of this churn for change (IMO) comes from the Canadian inferiority complex. That's a whole different thread.

I would argue that one of there main causes of the 1949 mutinies was the mix of sailors from Murray's "sheep dog navy" with their desire to be Canadian and the officers who were, by-and-large, from Nelles' "big ship navy" who had, in the main, missed the drudgery of the Battle of the Atlantic. The maple leaves came off the funnels, even the Canada flashes were in danger, I believe, under Jones and/or Reid.

I was told that there was a similar disconnect between the rank-and-file and the officers in the immediate post-war Army but St Laurent's/Claxton's "new model," professional army - built for the "come as you are war" - and Korea soon fixed that.

 

[FSTO]

officers who were, by-and-large, from Nelles' "big ship navy" who had, in the main, missed the drudgery of the Battle of the Atlantic.

Not to disparage your knowledge Edward but few if any officers and senior rates of the Tribals that fought fleet actions in WWII did not do some or significant time on the North Atlantic Run. Harry DeWolf for example was CO of St. Laurent until 1943 when he took command of Haida. John Stubbs of Athabaskan fame won his spurs as CO of Assiniboine. Like all myths there will be a whiff of truth, an odor of bullshit and heavy dose of we can't quite remember.

 

[RangerRay]

Most of this churn for change (IMO) comes from the Canadian inferiority complex. That's a whole different thread.

Ding ding ding!

 

[quadrapiper]

And I'm all for getting rid of the saluting women as they cross the brow. That's the type of patronistic sexist bullshit that I'm frankly shocked wasn't eliminated years ago. Now that I think about it, is that one of those things that's an actual regulation, or is it an unwritten rule that's just strictly enforced?

No idea about the state of practice, or if it found its way into orders (especially above the individual ship level), but IIRC it was mentioned in a variety of older official and semi-/pseudo-official (Neptune's Notes sort of thing, though not sure if it's in Notes) references and training docs.

 

[Navy_Pete]

• Purple and Orange pens for the MSEO and CSEO respectively

I hate that one and refused to use a purple pen, and when I had to got a scented one with glitter for fun. After that I got a blue pen again. Totally irrational but I don't like purple generally, and also tainted by the first person I met that followed that being a complete and utter knob.

Funniest thing was seeing the CSEO sign a radhaz chit with orange pen at night, have it disappear in red light, and have it come back for signature in blue/black.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Don't know if Venture has been teaching this report lately.

Apparently Venture was gone, but is being stood back up under NPTG? I don't really follow what is going on, but they broke CFNES a few years ago (along with OT div) so why not make a clean sweep?

The plus side of PARs replacing PERs is 'leading change' is no longer a bubble (which someone probably got a bubble for).