Training the core

[Sapplicant]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

A lot of times, soldiers are expected to do as they're told without questioning it. Perhaps looking beyond JUST the physical aspect of it, and thinking of the mental conditioning might help alleviate some of your concerns?

Also, consider the fact that you, much like me, have very little knowledge and experience. You've gotten 3 replies from people who have LOTS of knowledge, and more experience than a lot of people will ever get during their time in uniform.

As quickly as they gave you an answer, you dismissed them. Did you start this thread with the expectation that everyone will agree with you, and sit ups/crunches will henceforth be banished from the Canadian Forces?

One last thought. Sometimes, in the heat of battle, a soldier may get knocked down, and is now laying on his/her back. I'm fairly confident that if a soldier got knocked down, but isn't really hurt, he'd be expected to get back up again, and do so with a sense of urgency.

Lay down on your back, and try to get up as quickly as possible, without ANY simulation of a sit up/crunch motion. Now, get up as fast as you can, using a sit up/crunch motion, carrying that momentum forward, and bringing your body over your feet. Voila! We did this EXACT motion during football practices, along with up-downs.

I could be wrong, I could be right. I guess only time, and someone who's qualified, will tell.

 

[Nostix]

I guess that ties back into my main point.

Yes, at some point in time, someone will almost undoubtedly have to perform a sit-up type motion. And yes, the sit-up is a commonly tested indicator of core fitness.

But that does not mean that you have to (or even should) try to train your core solely by doing sit-ups. As we've covered in the topic, there are a number of different situations that require a number of different types of core strength.

In the same sense that I'd put my money on someone who trains with their overhead, bench, chin-up, and row, over someone who only does pushups, I'd put my money on someone who trains their core with heavy squats, deadlifts, and stability and balance exercises over someone who only does sit-ups.

The sit-up itself is hardly such a wide-spread and prevalent motion that it deserves to be isolated for training all on it's own, in my opinion.

 

[bdave]

It's the same reason I'd never train to get better at pushups by doing pushups.

This flies in the face of conventional training knowledge. I was able to hit 120 pushups (all the up, all the way down - good form basically) by doing them on a constant basis. Other than that, Nostix basically understands what my point was; there are better ways to train your abdominal muscles than relying on sit ups/crunches.

As quickly as they gave you an answer, you dismissed them. Did you start this thread with the expectation that everyone will agree with you, and sit ups/crunches will henceforth be banished from the Canadian Forces?

I 'refuted' their answers. This is is a forum, so I expect some discussion. I was basically trying to bring about a point on sit ups/crunches, and their use as a physical fitness test. As for someone with knowledge and experience, Dr. Stuart Mcgill has been studying the spine for pretty much his entire 'career'. He is considered by many, to be THE man, when it comes to the spine. The man says spinal flexion (brought on by crunches/sit ups) is very bad, and that there are better ways to train your abdominal muscles.

 

[Sapplicant]

But that does not mean that you have to (or even should) try to train your core solely by doing sit-ups. As we've covered in the topic, there are a number of different situations that require a number of different types of core strength.

In the same sense that I'd put my money on someone who trains with their overhead, bench, chin-up, and row, over someone who only does pushups, I'd put my money on someone who trains their core with heavy squats, deadlifts, and stability and balance exercises over someone who only does sit-ups.

The sit-up itself is hardly such a wide-spread and prevalent motion that it deserves to be isolated for training all on it's own, in my opinion.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/Downloads/Fitness%20Manual%20ENG.pdf
On page 68, the core strengthening circuits begin. Sit ups aren't the ONLY exercise, but they are definitely a major component. Also notice how many variations there are of the exercise.

Also, one must consider the difference between muscle stability, and muscle strength. Stabilizing is not necessarily strengthening, and strengthening is not necessary stabilizing.

 

[Nostix]

While I'm glad to see that there are a number of different exercises, I'm still a little surprised that they all seem to be variations on the basic theme of isolating the abs in a curl. My objection to the idea of training the sit-up or the curl is less of a condemnation of them in general, and more a reaction to how much emphasis they seem to receive when other areas of fitness are neglected.

I'll be the first one to admit that anyone training for comprehensive fitness (such as someone following the manual provided), will certainly be sufficiently well-rounded to absorb some extra isolation work on the abdominals.

My biggest personal worry is when there is someone out there who isn't doing everything else, and simply training specifically for an indicator test like the sit-ups, a situation which unfortunately comes up from time to time.

 

[Nostix]

Or, if I had to succinctly summarize my opinion on the sit-up:

Nobody should use an isolation move such as the sit-up as the foundation for their core training. Core training should come primarily from actively engaging the core muscles in your abdominals and back to aid in the performance of other complex movements. If (and only if) that foundation is properly established and balanced, isolation exercises are perfectly acceptable to increase the intensity of the training.

 

[Chilme]

Just to clarify a few things:

1) A sit-up is not primarily a core/ab exercise.  It primarily targets the hip flexors with the abs as a secondary mover. (You may recall the feeling in your legs during the EXPRES test sit-ups)

2) Yes it is true that there are very few jobs where someone does the sit-up motion with feet locked down.  However, think of the movement with the upper body being anchored.  Examples of movements:
-Anything where you are hanging and trying to bring lower body up. (Parachuting, rock climbing, rope climbing, obstacle course, )
-Consider the leg movement in running and rucking.
-Kicking motion in swimming
-Getting up from the supine (lying on back) position.

3) The reality is that one uses the muscles involved in the sit up so much that it is recommended by PSP that soldiers refrain from training with sit-ups in a effort to avoid overuse injury to the hip flexor muscles.  A good way to train your core is with static movements like front, back, side planks.  One could do butterfly crunches/sit-ups to minimize hip flexor use and direct more work to the abs.  (Butterfly crunches/sit-ups have the bottoms of feet placed together with knees flaring out to the side.)  The list goes on...

I would recommend speaking with local PSP or your unit BFTA to expand your exercise library.

 

[Frank G]

I bought McGill's book this summer following a lower back injury and definitely recommend it to anyone looking to improve their health and athletic prowess, I wholeheartedly agree with the no crunch/sit ups/Russian twists principle, the book is legit, but like it's been mentioned before, it's going to take a while for it to leave the CF physical training manuals.

My understanding is that any variation of sit ups do their job in training the core muscles (some at least) but also do their job inflicting wear and tear on the spine tissues. Especially for those with lower tolerance to injuries. Replacing these exercises with some that removes or at the very least reduces that chance of injury while providing a better result is only logical. Here's what another renowned coach said "If it weren’t for dead guys, we’d probably never have started doing crunches. That’s because for years, much of our knowledge of the way muscles work was  based on the study of human cadavers. By looking at the anatomy of corpses, modern scientists figured that the function of our abdominal muscles must be to flex the spine. " http://alwyncosgrove.com/2010/12/new-rules-of-lifting-for-abs/

I'm glad too hear they're reviewing the issue in Meaford though.

For those interested here are some exercises:

Anti-rotation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqlxDpQSKU (By Coach Dos)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPrsV40UcoY (By Coach Dos)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JEj7t6Cy9s

Curl up (variation of a sit up by McGill)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCSc6tvlWPs&feature=more_related

 

[Hambo]

Overhead pressing, belt-less squats, deadlifts will also greatly strengthen the entire trunk.

Weighted decline sit ups are also great.

-Ham.

 

[aesop081]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

I have to lean forward at the waist to remove 60lbs+ sonobouys from their storage racks, then back to straight up, then back to leaning forward to place them in the launch tubes on the aircraft at +2G.

Close enough to situps for you ?

 

[Chilme]

I have to lean forward at the waist to remove 60lbs+ sonobouys from their storage racks, then back to straight up, then back to leaning forward to place them in the launch tubes on the aircraft at +2G.

Close enough to situps for you ?

Sounds like a perfect example!

 

[Hambo]

I have to lean forward at the waist to remove 60lbs+ sonobouys from their storage racks, then back to straight up, then back to leaning forward to place them in the launch tubes on the aircraft at +2G.

Close enough to situps for you ?

So do you do heavy, weighted sit ups? Or do you do higher rep, body weight sit ups?

I fail to see how body weight sit ups would help you there.

 

[aesop081]

So do you do heavy, weighted sit ups?

Nope.

 

[Hambo]

Nope.

Alright, then. :

 

[Chilme]

So do you do heavy, weighted sit ups? Or do you do higher rep, body weight sit ups?

I fail to see how body weight sit ups would help you there.

Look at it this way: If one can't even get their own upper body weight up 19 time, there is a good chance they wouldn't last long in CDN Aviators job.

 

[aesop081]

:

I dont understand why you are rolling your eyes.

 

[bdave]

I dont understand why you are rolling your eyes.

He means to say that you don't 'train' for this, so the fact that it is part of the CF physical test is useless/irrelevant.

 

[aesop081]

He means to say that you don't 'train' for this,

I do situps multiple time each visit to the gym. This helps with the performance of my duties on board the aircraft. It is the only part of the CF expres test that remotely relates to my work.

How am i not training for it and how is it irrelevant ?

 

[Hambo]

I do situps multiple time each visit to the gym. This helps with the performance of my duties on board the aircraft. It is the only part of the CF expres test that remotely relates to my work.

How am i not training for it and how is it irrelevant ?

Because after a certain point, training the movement with only your BW will become irrelevant/pointless if, for your job, you need to do the same movement with a bunch of weight. 60 lbs isn't too much though, so for that much weight, it may not even matter.

As another example, would only training BW push ups, and being able to do 60 of them in a row, help you for the part of your job that required you to press 300 lbs off your chest occasionally? No.

Hence me asking if you trained weighted sit ups.

 

[aesop081]

60 lbs isn't too much though, so for that much weight, it may not even matter.

60lbs at 2G is 120lbs.......

Edit : Have to correct myself, an SSQ-62E is roughly 36lbs