Transporting the Leopard 2; split from Leopard 2 Pictures

[Gramps]

One of those planes can only carry two Leo tanks + the supporting equipment. There are two tanks in those photos they just look the same and you only see one at a time.

Okay, this statement is completely off the mark. There was one LeoII in the aircraft with all of the extras that come with it. You can take that as fact as I was one of the poeple overseeing the unload. There is more to it than there simply being more equipment for the tank onboard as well. An aircraft MPL (Maximum PayLoad) is lowered in warmer environments, as well there was freight for another Nation in this aircraft. There were most certainly NOT two LeoII's on that aircraft.

 

[TN2IC]

Now we all know. Thanks Gramps. I never knew MPL is lower in warmer environments. Good information to know.

 

[Gramps]

As far as I know it is more of a concern for take off weights but as I understand it the warmer air also has an effect on the MPL for landing as well. I am sure some of the pilots that post here can shed much more light on this than I can.

 

[GAP]

As far as I know it is more of a concern for take off weights but as I understand it the warmer air also has an effect on the MPL for landing as well. I am sure some of the pilots that post here can shed much more light on this than I can.

I believe Globemasher addressed this, and he's the "man"!!  ;D

edited to add: but it sure is nice to hear from the "working " community.....hehe....(ohhhhh, am I going to get slammed for that one!!)

 

[Globesmasher]

As far as I know it is more of a concern for take off weights but as I understand it the warmer air also has an effect on the MPL for landing as well. I am sure some of the pilots that post here can shed much more light on this than I can.

Gramps

You are absolutely correct.  The thinner (less dense) the air is, the worse the aircraft will perform in terms of thrust produced by the engines, takeoff run and climb capability.  So, the higher the pressure altitude is and the hotter the ambient temperature is = the worse the aircraft will perform when compared to a nice cool/cold winter day at sea level.

There's plenty of "room/space" for the tank in the C-17.  Infact, as far as square footage goes, we can probably put 4 of the things in the cargo compartment.  The issue is the max available weight that we can lift into/out of the desired location based on ambient conditions and also aircraft capability.

We're capable of lifting approx 164,000 lbs as an absolute Max Pay Load, and the tank weighs in at about 130,000 lbs and change I believe (I'm not exactly sure on the tank weight).  So, in and of itself we can safely life one single tank in and out of destination if the ambient conditions (temperature, pressure and density altitude) allow us to, without using up very much floor space at all.

The actual "PSI" of the thread against the floor is being mitigated and studied at this time by "bigger heads".

The C-17s hauled the American Abrahms M1A1 into Northern Iraq in 2003.  They weighed in at 134,000 lbs, fully armoured and fully armed (full ammo compliment) without any real issues.

 

[SteveB]

Globesmasher, I was wondering if on an operation you were required to maintain a balanced field length and such other safety requirements.  I would think that the small chance of an engine failure would be outweighed (pun intended) by the operational necessity but, I'm curious.  Also, do you guys do reduced thrust takeoffs? Do you use a flex temp or a fixed de-rate?  I've certainly heard that those planes have power to spare most of the time.

Congrats again on the new bird. 

Have a good one

Steve

 

[Globesmasher]

Globesmasher, I was wondering if on an operation you were required to maintain a balanced field length and such other safety requirements.  I would think that the small chance of an engine failure would be outweighed (pun intended) by the operational necessity but, I'm curious.  Also, do you guys do reduced thrust takeoffs? Do you use a flex temp or a fixed de-rate?  I've certainly heard that those planes have power to spare most of the time.

Congrats again on the new bird. 

Have a good one

Steve

Steve:
We use CFL, Critical Field Length for our TOLD calculations.
We use DeRated Thrust (DRT) takeoffs when we can, but if unable then we go for a Max Thrust takeoff.
Flex Temp is an airbus thing from what I understand - we don't use it.
There's plenty of power on the engines thats for sure ..... Pratt & Whitney FW117s .... 40,400 lbs of thrust each.
Just multiply that by 4 for a good time!!  ;D
The turbine is a little more beefed up than it's civilian equivalent.

 

[SteveB]

Nah, Though we use flex temp on the 737NG, I know that de-rate is an option.  Of course, the CC177 likely has a fair amount of MD architecture in its design.

Do you do a runway analysis for each runway or do you have a library of precalculated max weights for the runways you use frequently?  I suppose what I wondered is if you had two sets of performance numbers.  One with all the FAR 25 stuff for takeoff and all the climb segments OEI, and another for all engines operating for when the risk of an engine failure is outweighed by an operational advantage.

 

[DirtyDog]

The AHSVS is still in the works (and I am not sure that back flips were done in time to change specs for it to haul the Leo 2).

They are supposed to start delivery of the AHSVS soon aen't they (including 12 tank carrier variants)?  How much modifications would they need to haul Leo 2s?

 

[Globesmasher]

Do you do a runway analysis for each runway or do you have a library of precalculated max weights for the runways you use frequently?  I suppose what I wondered is if you had two sets of performance numbers.  One with all the FAR 25 stuff for takeoff and all the climb segments OEI, and another for all engines operating for when the risk of an engine failure is outweighed by an operational advantage.

Nope, no library and no data bank - we approach each flight, leg or mission in its own merits.  The Aircraft Commander will then take all available geographic and ambient data and calculate his max weight, climb capability (3 and 4 engine) and performance specs etc ....

FAR is American (I'm assuming here that you're referring to FAR/AIM) and has no regulatory precedence over us - in fact we don't even read it.  Our climb gradients etc all fall under B-GA-100, GPH 204, 1 Cdn Air Div Orders and the actual Flight Manual for the aircraft.  We're not civilian registered and therefore do not fall under civilian requirements (i.e. for climb gradients, approach ban etc ...).  However, we can be violated for infractions by civilian ATC agencies .... so it "behooves" one to ensure that one has an intimate working knowledge of civilian ATC procedures.

I sure wouldn't mind flying that B 737-NG that you referred to - perhaps for my next posting.  Who knows!!  ;D

 

[SteveB]

Nice answer.  I just figured that as the plane was American, it was certified to American standards.  It would just be more test flight data but, I can identify with ignoring numbers that don't apply to me.

The NG is pretty nice, and I fly the -800 that they are modifying to a P8.  There were quite a few USN crews doing C40 training when I went through my last sim.  You never know.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tank recce]

The C-17s hauled the American Abrahms M1A1 into Northern Iraq in 2003.  They weighed in at 134,000 lbs, fully armoured and fully armed (full ammo compliment) without any real issues.

Curious - were they transported with the ammo in shipping crates, or actually loaded in the racks? I remember being told to remove my mag of blanks as part of helo loading drills, so 120mm APFSDS strikes me as an odd thing to have loaded...  ;D

 

[Globesmasher]

Curious - were they transported with the ammo in shipping crates, or actually loaded in the racks? I remember being told to remove my mag of blanks as part of helo loading drills, so 120mm APFSDS strikes me as an odd thing to have loaded...  ;D

All the ammunition was loaded in the racks in the actual tank.
It drove on - the crew stepped out and sat in the sidewall seats.
It then drove off at destination ready to fight - that was it.

All the ammo and add-on armour added a great deal to the overall weight of the vehicle.
Here's a picture of on eof the hauls one night - you can also see some crates on the top of the tank with some 1.3 and 1.4 DC ......

 

[Franko]

Picture's worth a thousand words....and that's proof enough for me.

Regards