Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

[vonGarvin]

Proof, I believe, that even a broken clock can be right.  Sometimes.

 

[brihard]

The unasked questions are, of course: what is an entire Libyan brigade doing in Syria? How exactly did they manage to transport themselves and their weaponry into an area supposedly subject to an embargo?

I think he forgets that insurgent forces in that part of the world are a tad more liberal with the term 'Brigade' than even we are.

 

[vonGarvin]

Of course.  But it is a good question.

 

[brihard]

Oh, certainly. I'm not gonna assume for a second that most Western states don't have their fingers in this pie to some extent or another.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I think he forgets that insurgent forces in that part of the world are a tad more liberal with the term 'Brigade' than even we are.

Here is a link to a 09 Aug article in Foreign Policy magazine about the Liwa’ al-Ummah Brigade.  The article does state there is link to Libya, but that 90% of its members are Syrians. A couple of the people interviewed were actually ex-pats living in Europe when they joined the revolution. It also states that the "brigade' has 6,000 members, which does not necessary mean they have 6,000 members under arms. While there is a religious aspect to the organization there is no indication in the article that the unit is made up of Al-Qaida members or associated with the group.

Taylor is right that Islamic extremists did destroy Sufi religious sites in Libya with bulldozers while police forces did nothing. The article (National Post??) I read, however, made no mention of "200" fanatics storming the site. There was also lots of opposition among ordinary Libyans to the destruction.

 

[GAP]

Canada’s Top Guns rang up $11 million in hotel bills during Libya mission
Published on Thursday September 20, 2012
Article Link

OTTAWA—Canada’s Top Guns and their support crews rang up $11 million in hotel bills during their time patrolling the skies over Libya.

But defence officials insisted Thursday it was more Motel 6 than Mediterranean villas with the average nightly rate ringing in at $115.

The defence department was sent scrambling Thursday after CBC News revealed that Canadian military personnel who took part in the NATO mission last year were housed in hotels.

That included the pilots and crews of the seven CF-18 Hornets that flew more than 900 sorties over Libya, along with the crews for a CC-150 Polaris refuelling aircraft that also took part.

The total cost of last year’s mission, known as OP Mobile, was $104 million. The cost of housing 440 personnel deployed over 227 days — from March to November — rang in at $11.5 million.

On Thursday, defence staff defended the decision saying logistics and cost dictated the decision to check-in.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper sent Canadian aircrews to join a NATO mission that was enforcing a UN-sanctioned no-fly zone and supporting demonstrators on the ground who eventually overthrew long-time leader Moammar Gadhafi.

But with crews arriving from many NATO nations, there wasn’t enough room at the Italian military bases to accommodate everyone, forcing Canadians to search for other housing options.

Adding to the headache was the fact that NATO extended the mission several times, sometimes in 60-day increments, “which made long-term planning very difficult,” defence spokesman Daniel Blouin told the Star Thursday.

“Several options were considered for housing personnel, including building our own camp, but the bases of operations in southern Italy were full,” he said.
More on link

 

[aesop081]

What's the media's angle in this ?

Slow news day ?

The base in Sigonella ( the base the media seems to forget we were also based out if) was so full when we arrived that they were removing furniture from single rooms so they could house 3 people. Even hotels were tough to get because if the influx. Building a camp wouldn't have been cost effective either even if it had been possible.

 

[R.C.]

This news "report" is laughable. Print first, investigate later...the media's motto of late.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Many reservists on TF0306 and TF0308 to Afghanistan spent a year of work up training in transient quarters crammed 8 or 9 people to a 4 person room.
Some SNCOs were put 4 people to a room that barely fit 1 person.  It would have been nice for that to hit the news.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Many reservists on TF0306 and TF0308 to Afghanistan spent a year of work up training in transient quarters crammed 8 or 9 people to a 4 person room.
Some SNCOs were put 4 people to a room that barely fit 1 person.  It would have been nice for that to hit the news.

We worked very odd hours.  Not everybody was on the same schedule.  There was no available shack on base and on our "operational camp", we were right where 20 000 lbs of explosive was stored, out in the open.  Having sleeping tents/quarters close to work would have been unmanageable (ie: every time there is a thunderstorm warning, you need to evacuate the place, not ideal for someone on crew rest for an 8 hours mission a couple of hours later).  Not to mention planes taking off and landing at every hour.  Not the place I would want to be resting before operating an F-18 dropping a couple of 1000s lbs of explosive on targets...

Honestly, as nice as the Hotel was, it was a pain in the ass to drive 30-45 minutes each way.  I would have rather lived on base, however it was impossible. 

You cannot compare Army operations with Air Force operations.  We are governed by different rules, are subjected to different realities and operate in a very different way. 

 

[YZT580]

And what were the room rates of the reporters assigned to the airbase.  Undoubtably higher!  Definitely another attempt by CBC to smear the military. 

 

[brihard]

Not to mention planes taking off and landing at every hour.  Not the place I would want to be resting before operating an F-18 dropping a couple of 1000s lbs of explosive on targets...

You cannot compare Army operations with Air Force operations.  We are governed by different rules, are subjected to different realities and operate in a very different way.

Good thing we never sent you guys to Kandahar then. Busiest single airstrip in the world and we lived a few hundred meters away. You would have hated it. The Dutch, Brits and French got on alright though.

Different realities indeed...

 

[aesop081]

Different realities indeed...

And is all pretty freakin' moot.

In Sigonella, on-base accommodations, tented or otherwise, were not possible. Period. Our detachment lived in rented apartments ( 6 to a 3-bedroom in  my crew's case) 35 minutes away from base.

I don't know what the conditions were like in Trapani, i was not there.

We all chose our load-station, CA and RCAF alike. Don't like yours, read CFAO 11-12.

 

[MJP]

Good thing we never sent you guys to Kandahar then. Busiest single airstrip in the world and we lived a few hundred meters away. You would have hated it. The Dutch, Brits and French got on alright though.

Different realities indeed...

Woe be it for me to defend air crew guys but very few fighters staged out of there.  Lots of helos and transport it seemed.  Even then the pilots had decent quarters in order to have the ability to rest properly.  If you went up to Bagram they had an even sweeter set up for the pilots so they could have crew rest.  I certainly don't begrude the RCAF for having well rested guys in the sky dropping bombs around people.  Especially considering the political sensitivity of the mission if the wrong thing was hit. 

A great deal of our fast air came from out of country and I bet they also had great set-ups if they weren't at there home station. 

 

[brihard]

And is all pretty freakin' moot.

In Sigonella, on-base accommodations, tented or otherwise, were not possible. Period. Our detachment lived in rented apartments ( 6 to a 3-bedroom in  my crew's case) 35 minutes away from base.

I don't know what the conditions were like in Trapani, i was not there.

We all chose our load-station, CA and RCAF alike. Don't like yours, read CFAO 11-12.

EDIT- Nope, I had one thing written on this, but on reflection I think from my end a simple apology is in order. I got snippy when I oughtn't have been. Max, and any other aviators who may have taken any offence that I assure you was unintentional, I'm sorry.

 

[muskrat89]

Many reservists on TF0306 and TF0308 to Afghanistan spent a year of work up training in transient quarters crammed 8 or 9 people to a 4 person room.
Some SNCOs were put 4 people to a room that barely fit 1 person.  It would have been nice for that to hit the news.

Guys - wind your horns in. I think what OZ was saying is that it was ironic that the media is all over $11 million in hotel accommodations (which may have been reasonable under the circumstances) but didn't bat an eye when soldiers were stacked 6-9 high. Two sides of the same coin.

 

[vonGarvin]

In terms of media lines...and money...where Libya was enforcing foreign policy...what about all the money so soldiers can go to Ottawa to participate in a run?

 

[OldSolduer]

Guys - wind your horns in. I think what OZ was saying is that it was ironic that the media is all over $11 million in hotel accommodations (which may have been reasonable under the circumstances) but didn't bat an eye when soldiers were stacked 6-9 high. Two sides of the same coin.

Soldiers stacked 6-9 to a room won't make the news. The public doesn't care. Eleven million dollars they will understand.

I don't see a great public backlash over this though. No nasty letters to the editor here in Winnipeg.

 

[muskrat89]

Soldiers stacked 6-9 to a room won't make the news. The public doesn't care. Eleven million dollars they will understand.

I don't see a great public backlash over this though. No nasty letters to the editor here in Winnipeg.

Jim - unless I misunderstood, that's exactly what OZ was trying to say. It appears that some took it as an army versus air force dig.

 

[smale436]

    "I don't know what the conditions were like in Trapani, i was not there."

- I had to laugh at some of the farcical comments the CBC commenters were posting. Things like wondering if there was $16 OJ in case Bev Oda came to visit. In Trapani we were split between two hotels. Sure one was on the beach (not mine), sure they both had outdoor pools and free OJ with the free breakfast. But honestly the 45 minute drive to and from work was a pain as time went on. Dealing with the locals became an issue at times as well. I recall some log people mentioning how they tried to buy thousands of dollars of lumber at a store and they were pretty much told to get lost as some Italians did not like our presence (because of the mission) whatsoever.