UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[spr. mackinnon]

I am really not too sure if all of the people who are wearing any sort of CADPAT, be it real or the frontenac stuff, are actually supporting th CF.  I personally met a guy, who thought he was a hardcore "gangsta", wearing a pair if the fake pants, he did not even know that it was the canadian design.  Now I'm not saying all people who wear it are that oblivious, but come on, how much support are we recieving from people like that guy? Over.

 

[Centurian1985]

The line of argument is a bit silly; preventing the use of CADPADS is intended to prevent their use in iCanada when/if infiltrating units here. 

If an Afghani wants a set of CADPADS he will go to the laundry staff at a Canadian camp in the Middle East somewhere and get them to steal a pair...

 

[PViddy]

CADPAT is a uniform, the Canadian Government issues you this uniform for anything pretaining to military duty, see it as the tools required to do you job.  So when your working for the Queen, the you can wear the duds, when your not- you can't.

QR&O 36.05

36.05 – USE OF MATERIEL FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES
   
Except with the permission of the Minister, no materiel may be issued to or used by a member for purposes unrelated to the performance of military duty, recreational activities or his status as a member of the Canadian Forces.

I have a background in Firefighting, i support my team all the time but i don't wear my turn out gear to Walmart for fun.  Try a T-shirt ? you can even buy fADPAT ones! i don't know why we are different from the states ? but i can see the US having a really hard time controlling gear for all those troops.

my 2 cents.

cheers,

PV

 

[davidk]

The line of argument is a bit silly; preventing the use of CADPADS is intended to prevent their use in iCanada when/if infiltrating units here. 

If an Afghani wants a set of CADPADS he will go to the laundry staff at a Canadian camp in the Middle East somewhere and get them to steal a pair...

CADPADS? So we're finally getting issued knee and elbow pads?

Are there any security precautions taken as to Afghani nationals working for the CF over there? If it's that easy to walk out wit a bunch of uniforms, how secure is the rest of our kit?

 

[mrcpu]

CADPAT is a uniform, the Canadian Government issues you this uniform for anything pretaining to military duty, see it as the tools required to do you job.  So when your working for the Queen, the you can wear the duds, when your not- you can't.

QR&O 36.05

36.05 – USE OF MATERIEL FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES
   
Except with the permission of the Minister, no materiel may be issued to or used by a member for purposes unrelated to the performance of military duty, recreational activities or his status as a member of the Canadian Forces.

I have a background in Firefighting, i support my team all the time but i don't wear my turn out gear to Walmart for fun.  Try a T-shirt ? you can even buy fADPAT ones! i don't know why we are different from the states ? but i can see the US having a really hard time controlling gear for all those troops.

my 2 cents.

cheers,

PV

I noticed some VERY STRANGE trend here whereby people post quotes from the QR+O's and refer to other military rules and regulations.  Got news for everyone.. 35 million Canadians (give or take) are not in any way shape or form governed by nor subject the Military law in any way!

What I'm talking about is civilians (in my case ex-reservists) who are FANS.  We want to show our support and wear CF CADPAT pants or jackets because we DO care about our men and woman overseas and darn few Canadians seem to feel the same way  .  I follow the American attitude when it comes to our military and I'm proud of them!   

(Of course, I have to laugh at guys who wear the old garrison dress Canadian Tire Camo jackets!)

 

[Michael OLeary]

What I'm talking about is civilians (in my case ex-reservists) who are FANS.  We want to show our support and wear CF CADPAT pants or jackets because we DO care about our men and woman overseas and darn few Canadians seem to feel the same way  .  I follow the American attitude when it comes to our military and I'm proud of them!

Uh . . . . can you explain exactly how a civiian (ex-Reservist or other) wearing CADPAT pants demonstrates support for the Army?

And how is that message distinctly different from the types wearing Surplus Store chic?  Or cast off Garrison Dress jackets?

 

[Haggis]

I noticed some VERY STRANGE trend here whereby people post quotes from the QR+O's and refer to other military rules and regulations.  Got news for everyone.. 35 million Canadians (give or take) are not in any way shape or form governed by nor subject the Military law in any way!

Quite true, but they ARE governed by Criminal law:  Section 419 of the Canadian Criminal Code (http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/267591.html#Section-419) reads, in part:

"419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,....

....is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

 

[Trinity]

35 million Canadians (give or take) are not in any way shape or form governed by nor subject the Military law in any way!

I want to disagree with that.

Civilians can fall under certain statues in military law.  There are a few of them they can break.
I don't have the QR&O's in front me of, maybe someone else can find one or two of them
before I get a chance to find them.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I don't have the QR&O's in front me of . . .

Yes you do:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/intro_e.asp

 

[Trinity]

Yes you do:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/intro_e.asp

That's way too much work.  I just got diagnosed with kidney stones and its my birthday.

Can't you let me sluff this off just one time?!

 

[Redeye]

Would wearing just the pants or just the jacket be a criminal offence?

What urks me in some respect is the difference between Canada and the US on this matter.  I personally feel that wearing a pair of CADPAT pants or jacket (not going overboard and wearing a complete set) in public is analogous to wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs or Montreal Canadians OFFICIAL jersey in public. In fact, there are many who would, if they could get ahold of them, wear REAL team jerseys !

If I owned a real CADPAT jacket or pants I would wear them in public as a PROUD Canadian supporting my TEAM!!!  Why do we as Canadians want to punish people who want to wear our team colours and support our CF?

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I can't stand people wearing CADPAT who aren't in a full uniform that's been issued to them.  Why?  Simple.  It's not "team colours", it's not "supporting the troops", it's wearing a piece of clothing that is intended to distinctly identify members of a particular group - a group in this case to which the wearer DOES NOT BELONG.  Chances are, said individual is wearing the item incorrectly, looks slovenly, and in the worst case, may actually be mistaken for one of us looking like that.  Nothing infuriates me more.  The worst I've seen is a bunch of paintball/airsoft idiots strutting around in public in a hodgepodge of different uniforms, all worn improperly, in such a manner as to lead the general public to believe they were members of the armed forces.  I was sickened by it.

Simply put, if you want to wear CADPAT, go see a recruiter and join up.  Otherwise, you haven't earned the right.

 

[Michael OLeary]

That's way too much work.  I just got diagnosed with kidney stones and its my birthday.

Can't you let me sluff this off just one time?!

What do you think this is? Army.sympathy.ca?

Keep that up and I'll have one of the staff barbarians get medieval on your profile.

Oh, and Happy Birthday to your kidney stones.  Hope the treatment goes well.

 

[Trinity]

What do you think this is? Army.sympathy.ca?

There are a lot of offences that say "any person"  not just a service member.  That, to me,
would include any civilian.  Scoutfinch will have to weigh in on the matter considering her status
as a lawyer. 

But one I'm sure a civilian could be charged with... 

QR0
103.11 – OFFENCE OF BEING A SPY
 

(1) Section 78 of the National Defence Act provides:
 
"78. Every person who spies for the enemy is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.

 

[The_Falcon]

For anyone interested here are some of the links regarding genuine authentic CADPAT uniforms and the whos and whys it is illegal for someone outside the CF to have them.  So before people get all bent out of shape about some jihadist possibly or not possibly getting their hands on our uniforms, read these reads, this has all been covered before, and recently too (like last month)


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16339.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35975.0.html

I don't if the mods can lock this, or make one super-sticky thread about CADPAT and legal issues surrounding its use.

 

[PViddy]

What I'm talking about is civilians (in my case ex-reservists) who are FANS.  We want to show our support and wear CF CADPAT pants or jackets because we DO care about our men and woman overseas and darn few Canadians seem to feel the same way  .  I follow the American attitude when it comes to our military and I'm proud of them!     

(Of course, I have to laugh at guys who wear the old garrison dress Canadian Tire Camo jackets!) 

If you are indeed, an Ex reservist, you should make that more apparent in your profile.

cheers

PV

 

[dapaterson]

There are a lot of offences that say "any person"  not just a service member.  That, to me,
would include any civilian.  Scoutfinch will have to weigh in on the matter considering her status
as a lawyer. 

But one I'm sure a civilian could be charged with... 

QR0
103.11 – OFFENCE OF BEING A SPY
 

(1) Section 78 of the National Defence Act provides:
 
"78. Every person who spies for the enemy is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.

You would pick the most peculiar section of the NDA as an example.  Per section 60(1)(h), if you are an alleged spy for the enemy you are subject to the NDA.  Without that saving provision under 60(1)(h), no dice.  Most of the NDA applies only to those subject to the NDA, as defined in sections 60-65; mostly, it means the Regular Force at all times, the Special Force (when constituted) at all times, and Reserve Force members under an arcane and convoluted set of circumstances that lawyers often fret over (in one notable case, a reservist refused to attend his own court-martial, was ordered arrested by the judge, who then concluded that he as a judge lacked the requisite legal authority to try the member for not attending his own court martial).

Getting back on topic, the main reason charges are laid against service members over the sale of CADPAT clothing is that it is not the property of the member; it is signed out to them but remains the property of the crown.  An individual who sells CADPAT clothing does not have legal title to it; that is, in selling it, they are defrauding the buyer, as they have no clear title to the goods to convey (I think that's proper legal terminology, IANAL).  And, in selling it, they are committing an act of theft against the crown.

 

[Centurian1985]

Ref to military law and civilians, I believe civilians are bound by military law when they are on  DND property (i.e. traffic regulations) but Im not sure if they are bound by every law.  The only time I recall them being under all DND laws is when they are deployed as dependents (which eneded with the shut-down of bases from Germany); there may be other exceptions to this?

Back to CADPAT, I was informed by former MP co-workers that although they could try to go after a civilian who possessed CADPAT and was wearing it in public, the problem was so systemic that they couldnt go after EVERY civilian who was wearing it, and in the end would only lead to bad public relations especially if the clothing worn was a knock-off.  They did enthusiastically go after any CF or former CF member (reg or reserve) who attempted to sell their issued clothing as this did not require them to coordinate their actions with RCMP or city police forces or legal departments. However, I dont think they were applying section 419, rather it had to do with the 'sale of crown assets'  that did not belong to them (the people selling the items did not OWN them).

 

[spr. mackinnon]

I wholeheartedly with Piper, that if they want to show support, for the army, buy a t-shirt, dont wear the CADPAT, and by the way, it just looks dumb.

 

[mrcpu]

If you are indeed, an Ex reservist, you should make that more apparent in your profile.

cheers

PV

Huh?  I clearly state my previous unit and MOC.  I didn't put my rank but it was CPL.

 

[mrcpu]

I want to disagree with that.

Civilians can fall under certain statues in military law.  There are a few of them they can break.
I don't have the QR&O's in front me of, maybe someone else can find one or two of them
before I get a chance to find them.

Read 1.03 – PERSONS SUBJECT TO QR&O on http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch001_e.asp#1.03 and explain to me which of:

(a) the Regular Force;

(b) the Special Force;

c) the Reserve Force when subject to the Code of Service Discipline; and

(d) unless the Minister otherwise directs, any person not mentioned in subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) if the person is subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who becomes a prisoner of war continues to be subject to QR&O and all orders and instructions issued to the Canadian Forces under authority of the National Defence Act.

applies to civilians.  IN FACT I would read it that Reservists aren't always subject to the QR+O's all the time either, but I'm not sure what that would mean as part of this discussion.