US midterms: Republicans win
- Thread starter MPwannabe
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There is a simple solution if you don't know the solution.....keep your fingers off the buttons until you do.
6 Billion people making hundreds of independent and often random decisions, influenced by a myriad of unidentified and unmeasured external factors, including the effects of those 6 Billion people making decisions and there is supposed to be a grand plan that will turn the world into The Sun King's Garden.
Planning is vastly over-rated.
6 Billion people making hundreds of independent and often random decisions, influenced by a myriad of unidentified and unmeasured external factors, including the effects of those 6 Billion people making decisions and there is supposed to be a grand plan that will turn the world into The Sun King's Garden.
Planning is vastly over-rated.
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The problem is precisely highlighted in this thread - particularly the tremendous effort be the Republican Party to simultaneously suck and blow.
They fume about the deficit, but seem to forget that it was on GOP watches that deficits and debts soared primarily, so their claim of being the party of fiscal responsibility is unvarnished codswallop. They harp on being the champions of liberty and freedom, and yet they are beholden to anonymous (or largely anonymous) corporate donors whose interests likely dramatically oppose the average "man in the street" in the USA. The Citizens United decision in the USA in particular was a devastating blow to democracy in that country, and the midterms are just starting to show that, when enormous sums of money have been poured into races to influence the outcomes heavily.
Fortunately for Americans - and the entire world perhaps - the GOP didn't win the Senate last night, which renders them largely unable to do anything. And since they haven't really offered any policy plans (other than vague and often idiotic statements), that's probably good. Speicifically, I have loved watching them squirm when asked what specific cuts they'd make to fight the deficit. Not one of them has an answer it seems, and it's particularly excellent when more liberal media go straight for the throat and highlight that cutting defence and/or medicare and/or social security are essentially their only effective options... They want to keep the Bush tax cuts which were sold to Americans as being stimulative and giving a net benefit to the budget, when they haven't at all - and it's only the cuts for the wealthiest that the Dems are really dead-set on cutting.
Most disturbing was the Tea Party - people like Angle, Miller, and O'Donnell, all of whom were trounced fortunately. These people treated the media with contempt and avoided them - and that's very, very bad for democracy.
Expecting Obama to save the world in 2 years wasn't realistic, and if that made American liberals sit on their hands and not vote yesterday, well, they're morons. Worse, however, was the idea that the party that is largely the architect of America's misery could somehow fix the problems - I guess it could be said they're in a good position to do so since they know how they made them - but it's simply unreasonable to expect that they'd do anything different than they have in the past.
Good luck, America. You're going to need it.
They fume about the deficit, but seem to forget that it was on GOP watches that deficits and debts soared primarily, so their claim of being the party of fiscal responsibility is unvarnished codswallop. They harp on being the champions of liberty and freedom, and yet they are beholden to anonymous (or largely anonymous) corporate donors whose interests likely dramatically oppose the average "man in the street" in the USA. The Citizens United decision in the USA in particular was a devastating blow to democracy in that country, and the midterms are just starting to show that, when enormous sums of money have been poured into races to influence the outcomes heavily.
Fortunately for Americans - and the entire world perhaps - the GOP didn't win the Senate last night, which renders them largely unable to do anything. And since they haven't really offered any policy plans (other than vague and often idiotic statements), that's probably good. Speicifically, I have loved watching them squirm when asked what specific cuts they'd make to fight the deficit. Not one of them has an answer it seems, and it's particularly excellent when more liberal media go straight for the throat and highlight that cutting defence and/or medicare and/or social security are essentially their only effective options... They want to keep the Bush tax cuts which were sold to Americans as being stimulative and giving a net benefit to the budget, when they haven't at all - and it's only the cuts for the wealthiest that the Dems are really dead-set on cutting.
Most disturbing was the Tea Party - people like Angle, Miller, and O'Donnell, all of whom were trounced fortunately. These people treated the media with contempt and avoided them - and that's very, very bad for democracy.
Expecting Obama to save the world in 2 years wasn't realistic, and if that made American liberals sit on their hands and not vote yesterday, well, they're morons. Worse, however, was the idea that the party that is largely the architect of America's misery could somehow fix the problems - I guess it could be said they're in a good position to do so since they know how they made them - but it's simply unreasonable to expect that they'd do anything different than they have in the past.
Good luck, America. You're going to need it.
- Reaction score
- 12,199
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Outstanding....
More folks preaching the gospel of calling the customer a moron. It must work. So many intelligent people promoting the tactic. I will definitely incorporate the tactic in my next sales call.
By the way, how many years does Obama need to save the world? I'd like to know so that I can plan accordingly.
Just on the off chance though, does anybody know anybody with a better plan that would get the job done faster? He or she might be a better bet when planning my retirement.
Always good to know that the world is in good hands.
More folks preaching the gospel of calling the customer a moron. It must work. So many intelligent people promoting the tactic. I will definitely incorporate the tactic in my next sales call.
By the way, how many years does Obama need to save the world? I'd like to know so that I can plan accordingly.
Just on the off chance though, does anybody know anybody with a better plan that would get the job done faster? He or she might be a better bet when planning my retirement.
Always good to know that the world is in good hands.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Calling the customer a moron is fairly harsh, perhaps, but in the realm of politics it seems rather true sometimes. I'll cut some slack and say it's largely that they don't understand what they're talking about or deciding on more often than not, and politicians of all stripes have harnessed that for years. It's all fine to rail against deficits, but when you have no ideas on how to effectively cut them, well, what good does the railing do.
The US economy is a mess. America has lived, collectively, far beyond its means for a very long time, and as for how to fix that, there's no easy answer. First of all, the ever widening gap between that haves and the have-nots has to be addressed somehow. That doesn't mean attacking the rich, it doesn't mean "socialism", a big nasty word that right wingers bandy about as though there is nothing else to consider (which seems to be fuelled by the rhetoric of their contemptible army of talk radio idiots, vapid populist leaders, etc), but somehow making sure that the equality of opportunity (vice outcome) that they talk about so much actually exists. The fact is that it seems less and less of a reality. The idea of being able to climb of the social ladder seems remote to more and more people as conservatives seem (whether deliberately or not) to be pulling up the ladder, and/or sawing the rungs off the bottom.
How many years and what will it take to turn the mess around - if I knew, I wouldn't be posting it on here, I'd be whispering it into the ear of my American wife and sending her to run for office or something like that.
Where to start? Well, getting out-of-control spending under control is important, including a serious discussion of how to reform Social Security and how to dramatically cut the size of the US military. The latter consumes 33% of the government's budget in the US according to the most recent numbers I saw, and unless Americans start paying for it in the form of tax hikes (yeah right), then it's going to have to be cut. That is simply not debateable. Getting healthcare reform right is also critical. The USA spends 3x what the rest of the world does, yet doesn't cover everyone, and doesn't deliver as good outcomes. This can be fixed, but again, powerful insurance lobbies that aren't particularly concerned about their own bloat and waste aren't likely to fix anything, and getting around them is a major challenge.
Then there's rebuilding an economy - the Rust Belt industrial era - that's over. It's gone, it's done. Innovation is the only future there - and that takes investment - in education, in infrastructure, in things that will make America more competitive (in Canada our only salvation from this is resources, it seems). It is a worthwhile discussion to frame this as moving funds from military expenditures to investment in the economy.
Interestingly, a week or so ago, MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell hosted a panel of former Senators (mostly GOP, if not all) to discuss how to go about balancing the budget, and they managed to come up with a formula. I think it's on the web, if I find it I'll post it.
The thing is - as Thucydides said - politics as usual doesn't work anymore, and it is only innovation that will work. And I have no reason or historical precedent to suggest that we can expect that from any sort of conservative movement, particularly not an American one.
The US economy is a mess. America has lived, collectively, far beyond its means for a very long time, and as for how to fix that, there's no easy answer. First of all, the ever widening gap between that haves and the have-nots has to be addressed somehow. That doesn't mean attacking the rich, it doesn't mean "socialism", a big nasty word that right wingers bandy about as though there is nothing else to consider (which seems to be fuelled by the rhetoric of their contemptible army of talk radio idiots, vapid populist leaders, etc), but somehow making sure that the equality of opportunity (vice outcome) that they talk about so much actually exists. The fact is that it seems less and less of a reality. The idea of being able to climb of the social ladder seems remote to more and more people as conservatives seem (whether deliberately or not) to be pulling up the ladder, and/or sawing the rungs off the bottom.
How many years and what will it take to turn the mess around - if I knew, I wouldn't be posting it on here, I'd be whispering it into the ear of my American wife and sending her to run for office or something like that.
Where to start? Well, getting out-of-control spending under control is important, including a serious discussion of how to reform Social Security and how to dramatically cut the size of the US military. The latter consumes 33% of the government's budget in the US according to the most recent numbers I saw, and unless Americans start paying for it in the form of tax hikes (yeah right), then it's going to have to be cut. That is simply not debateable. Getting healthcare reform right is also critical. The USA spends 3x what the rest of the world does, yet doesn't cover everyone, and doesn't deliver as good outcomes. This can be fixed, but again, powerful insurance lobbies that aren't particularly concerned about their own bloat and waste aren't likely to fix anything, and getting around them is a major challenge.
Then there's rebuilding an economy - the Rust Belt industrial era - that's over. It's gone, it's done. Innovation is the only future there - and that takes investment - in education, in infrastructure, in things that will make America more competitive (in Canada our only salvation from this is resources, it seems). It is a worthwhile discussion to frame this as moving funds from military expenditures to investment in the economy.
Interestingly, a week or so ago, MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell hosted a panel of former Senators (mostly GOP, if not all) to discuss how to go about balancing the budget, and they managed to come up with a formula. I think it's on the web, if I find it I'll post it.
The thing is - as Thucydides said - politics as usual doesn't work anymore, and it is only innovation that will work. And I have no reason or historical precedent to suggest that we can expect that from any sort of conservative movement, particularly not an American one.
Kirkhill said:
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MPwannabe said:
Well I can comment on privatized health care, having family members in the US who's income does not allowed them to get the crap government subsidies they can apply for yet they still cannot afford adequate health care. I can tell you one thing, it is very easy for a rich american to bring down's Canada health care system, try talking to one who cannot afford health services.
I totally agree with you Obama was not given enough time to fix the issues at hand, that where caused by REPUBLICAN'S.
Mike
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canada94 said:
He'd never have enough time. The US is not ready to embrace socialism. As far as the rest being caused by the Republicans, which was caused by the Democrats before them and the Republicans before them, ad nauseum. Neither party is lily white in any of this. You can't blame one side or the other.
It's not a problem, soley, with the US system. Canada is no different in this, except we have more parties to spread the blame on.
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You're on the right track but you have some work to do with respect to the "morons" of the world. Failure to agree with us does not indicate that the disagreeable other has a lower, much less a significantly lower IQ.
Respect, like sincerity, is critical. Once you have learned to fake them then you have it made.
As to conservative....how else would you define somebody that adheres to an ideology that has been "challenged", at best, to deliver on its promises since the days of New Lanark and Bourneville over 200 years ago and didn't perform any better after a massive rewrite in 1848.
You are correct. It is time for new ideas and innovation. And I really like mine.
Cheers,
Respect, like sincerity, is critical. Once you have learned to fake them then you have it made.
Stipulated
I can't agree to the premise but I accept that that is something that you feel is critical. It is as just a cause as any other.
Glad to hear it, rich usually means somebody that has the penny that I want/need/deserve.
I don't know if it does mean socialism or not. It might. The problem I have is that just as Obama described himself "a blank slate" so is socialism defined. It is all things to all people and in consequence is particularly useless when discussing philosophy.
I trust that you enjoyed venting. I enjoy venting from time to time myself. Unfortunately I often find myself having to apologize to the individuals who bore the brunt.
Agreed entirely.
Conflation of perception and reality. But perception is reality for people (everyone) who make decisions based on the "facts" they "perceive".
I can agree with you that many people perceive the situation that way. I might even agree with their perception.
Another perception that I agree many people share. That one I happen to disagree with. And it comes perilously close to venting for my taste.
I'm glad that you believe there is a prescription. It is important to be optimistic when you are young. I too believe there are suitable remedies, unfortunately, in the main, I don't believe that you would accept my choices just as I have difficulty with yours. Just as I had difficulty with the choices made by David Cameron and Nick Clegg even as I agree that choices had to be made. They are smart but wrong (ie they don't please me).
Thucydides, did you say that? I am of the opinion that politics is. Just like communicating is, trading is and breathing is. Commerce and exchange happens. Politics happens. Now the rules by which politics is conducted might change for a while but but you can't break politics,or fix politics anymore than you can fix or break breathing. (Although you can stop it but the result is usually rather dire).
True in all things. Why don't you put your ideas into practice in your sphere of influence and if they prove to be beneficial to you then I will adopt them. If however you fail catastrophically then I will be able to darw the necessary conclusions at no risk to my situation.
There's that venting thing again. Very off-putting. And do try not to beat up on your wife that much...
As to conservative....how else would you define somebody that adheres to an ideology that has been "challenged", at best, to deliver on its promises since the days of New Lanark and Bourneville over 200 years ago and didn't perform any better after a massive rewrite in 1848.
You are correct. It is time for new ideas and innovation. And I really like mine.
Cheers,
A
aesop081
Guest
canada94 said:
Caused by the Republican administration and the Democrat congress that was in place at the time. There is plenty of blame to go around and spans more than a single administration.
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What gets me is that they think voting in a few libertarians is going to "fix Washington."
A
aesop081
Guest
Oh No a Canadian said:
Just like people thought voting in Obama was going to "fix Washington".............. :boring:
A
aesop081
Guest
DirtyDog said:
Yup. Its the same as in Canada, where US bashing is the national sport of the uninformed masses.
"The best argument against democracy is a 15 minute conversation with the average voter"
- Reaction score
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"Politics as usual" is no longer working for many reasons, many of which are cultural or structural, so "more" politics isn't going to be the fix.
The greatest change is disintermediation. The Internet, vast growth of an educated population and other communications technologies allows people to discover things for themselves, and organize spontaneously to take action. Things like the inaction of the Justice Department against the "New Black Panthers" voter intimidation or the withholding of mail in ballots to US service members can now be documented and publicized across the nation and around the world via the blogosphere, and when the political class tries to downplay such activities, protest movements like the TEA party or "True the Vote" rise up to correct the situation. The model of politics and public participation in the community will change to reflect this.
The American Founding Fathers would be pleased with the results of last night's elections, they deliberately divided the structure of government in order to prevent the growth of State power.
The Republican Congress will not be able to repeal Obamacare against a Presidential veto (until 2013), but they will be able to do other things. Incidentally, the factors which make healthcare difficult to afford in some cases are usually regulatory failure, not free market failure, and exist to the extent that the market is being thwarted or distorted. There are lots of models between the Canadian and American models (how come no one seems to be studying Swedish health care, for example?), but wherever there is a direct comparison between State and private health care exists (the UK for example), service and outcomes are far superior for the private system.
The greatest change is disintermediation. The Internet, vast growth of an educated population and other communications technologies allows people to discover things for themselves, and organize spontaneously to take action. Things like the inaction of the Justice Department against the "New Black Panthers" voter intimidation or the withholding of mail in ballots to US service members can now be documented and publicized across the nation and around the world via the blogosphere, and when the political class tries to downplay such activities, protest movements like the TEA party or "True the Vote" rise up to correct the situation. The model of politics and public participation in the community will change to reflect this.
The American Founding Fathers would be pleased with the results of last night's elections, they deliberately divided the structure of government in order to prevent the growth of State power.
The Republican Congress will not be able to repeal Obamacare against a Presidential veto (until 2013), but they will be able to do other things. Incidentally, the factors which make healthcare difficult to afford in some cases are usually regulatory failure, not free market failure, and exist to the extent that the market is being thwarted or distorted. There are lots of models between the Canadian and American models (how come no one seems to be studying Swedish health care, for example?), but wherever there is a direct comparison between State and private health care exists (the UK for example), service and outcomes are far superior for the private system.
