Blessed are the cheese makers?
US Presidential Election 2024 - Trump vs Harris - Vote Hard with a Vengence
- Thread starter kkwd
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I think it’s sad that in previous election cycles, POTUS candidates were booted saying and doing things far less than what he has said and done.
And last I checked - you’re Canadian too so also not an American voter. AFAIK in this forum, only @KevinB is actually able to put in a ballot. You taking us laughing at him so personally is also curious.
FJAG
Army.ca Legend
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You continuously miss the point about those of us here who call out Trump for his buffoonery. We're not upset with him, nor do we hate him. Unlike Republicans, who express to hatred and spite against Democrat candidates, our concern is with the people who are his enablers. It's like clapping for the monkey every time he lifts his little hat when a coin is dropped in his cup. (I know that like me you're old enough to remember the reference) Of more concern is that he will not surround himself with some good people like he did in his last presidency but reach deep into the bag of noxious sycophants that surround him. Should he be able to haul out a legitimate win, his next presidency will not be something that large numbers of Republicans won't even be happy with.
Presidential campaigns aren't a tail-gate party. They should be serious affairs where national policies are discussed seriously; something Trump is incapable of. He doesn't argue policies, he vomits up ad hominems.
Being a non voter does not make us disinterested nor incapable of rational thought and analysis.
Once again many Republicans misinterpret concern about the health of the political state amongst our biggest neighbours with hate. The fact that they find it merely amusing rather than something noteworthy simply shows that their understanding of the state of the nation is shallow and completely lacking in any insight as to the second and third order effects of their actions.
Unfortunately for MAGA supporters that's unfortunately all too true.
That's deeply concerning.
If true it might. But it's not. Harris has been leading the polls steadily. I'll certainly admit that Trump has far more support than he should.
Once again you impugn beliefs in others without any foundation in that belief. I'll go so far as to admit that most non-Republicans (and quite a few Republicans) are unable to see why such a large percentage of the electorate hasn't yet discovered that the emperor has no clothes and cleave to him like a limpet to a stone. While stupidity may account for a large part of that, most if us see it as a general dissatisfaction of the political system and the bureaucracy that underlies governance. The problem is that resolving those very issues requires a serious leader and not a shallow buffoon. Most of us can understand how Republicans wouldn't entrust that task to a Democrat. What escapes us is that there were, and still are, some very serious Republicans who would fill the bill of a leader of reform. And yet the mob ruled and cowed the serious contenders. I'll take a guess here, based on zero data, that the majority of those people who will vote the Republican ticket are voting against Harris and not for Trump.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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Stanfield fumbled a football.
Dukakis took a ride in a tank.
Duceppe visited a cheese factory.
All of those stunts turned out badly for the candidate, and their own campaigns acknowledged it.
Or could the gesture really have been a more general appeal to all manufacturers of dairy products?
Brad Sallows
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Perhaps. But the point is that campaign events at which candidates attempt to connect with people by doing unaccustomed things are risky, particularly if the candidate has to dress for the occasion. Trump is a product of an even more privileged upbringing than Harris, but he is consistently better at mingling, or at least the appearance thereof. I watched a couple of clips of unfriendly coverage of the McDonald's thing, and it's clear that at least some of his foes are making the grave strategic error of underestimating their opponent and refusing to admit when he has taken a point away from them. Trump can win, and by almost all the indicators has a likelihood of victory somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. If that happens, there will be the usual frenzy of inter-party bickering and recriminations. Some of it will centre on their unwise dismissiveness.
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You're saying the same thing I am, but arguing from opposite poles. Trump is no more a buffoon than Harris and all your points can also be applied to democrats equally. I can live with that.You continuously miss the point about those of us here who call out Trump for his buffoonery. We're not upset with him, nor do we hate him. Unlike Republicans, who express to hatred and spite against Democrat candidates, our concern is with the people who are his enablers. It's like clapping for the monkey every time he lifts his little hat when a coin is dropped in his cup. (I know that like me you're old enough to remember the reference) Of more concern is that he will not surround himself with some good people like he did in his last presidency but reach deep into the bag of noxious sycophants that surround him. Should he be able to haul out a legitimate win, his next presidency will not be something that large numbers of Republicans won't even be happy with.
Presidential campaigns aren't a tail-gate party. They should be serious affairs where national policies are discussed seriously; something Trump is incapable of. He doesn't argue policies, he vomits up ad hominems.
Being a non voter does not make us disinterested nor incapable of rational thought and analysis.
Once again many Republicans misinterpret concern about the health of the political state amongst our biggest neighbours with hate. The fact that they find it merely amusing rather than something noteworthy simply shows that their understanding of the state of the nation is shallow and completely lacking in any insight as to the second and third order effects of their actions.
Unfortunately for MAGA supporters that's unfortunately all too true.
That's deeply concerning.
If true it might. But it's not. Harris has been leading the polls steadily. I'll certainly admit that Trump has far more support than he should.
Once again you impugn beliefs in others without any foundation in that belief. I'll go so far as to admit that most non-Republicans (and quite a few Republicans) are unable to see why such a large percentage of the electorate hasn't yet discovered that the emperor has no clothes and cleave to him like a limpet to a stone. While stupidity may account for a large part of that, most if us see it as a general dissatisfaction of the political system and the bureaucracy that underlies governance. The problem is that resolving those very issues requires a serious leader and not a shallow buffoon. Most of us can understand how Republicans wouldn't entrust that task to a Democrat. What escapes us is that there were, and still are, some very serious Republicans who would fill the bill of a leader of reform. And yet the mob ruled and cowed the serious contenders. I'll take a guess here, based on zero data, that the majority of those people who will vote the Republican ticket are voting against Harris and not for Trump.
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I'm sorry, what? You must have a different definition of buffoon then, oh, I guess the rest of the world.
Brad Sallows
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Watch the clip of Harris's flippant response during a 2020 primary debate to Joe Biden pointing out that something was unconstitutional. Trump dials it up to 11, but she is also arguably past the threshold where seriousness ends. I see much of what she presents this election as a manufactured facade (posed pictures, cosplaying as president by trying to interject herself into crises of the day, reverses without explanation on many past policy stances). Neither candidate measures up to "serious".
Focusing on the buffoonery is a game for people disconnected from "ordinary" Americans. How can people possibly vote for that buffoon?
- probably not going to try to give away thousands of dollars in student loan forgiveness
- probably not going to push for national permissive abortion
- probably not going to haul religious organizations and others into court over conscience-based refusals
- probably going to keep seeking normalization between Israel and the non-Iranian regional powers
- probably going to support keeping the last round of tax cuts
- probably going to pursue protectionist trade policies (a bad idea, but sounds good to people who don't grasp free trade well)
- probably going to appoint federal judges who hew closer to constitutional fidelity
- probably going to try to constrict the flow of illegal migrants into the country
- probably not going to push for as much public spending (which aggravates inflation)
Buffoonery just doesn't enter into it. Worrying about style is a luxury of the "protected" classes.
QV
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And I'll add to this in another way. I'm guessing the polls are not accurate, again, in favor of Trump. I read a comment on an article at NRO and it provides a good explanation why I think this way and agree with the commentator.
"The reluctant Trump voter has good reason to stay quiet. In many circles wherein careers are made or destroyed, one can loudly proclaim support for Harris. Any similar show of support for Trump would lead to eventual exile among co-workers at best and roadblocks to career advancement or outright termination on some other pretext at worst. The media has so effectively vilified Trump that it's nigh impossible to have a rational discussion with dogmatic anti-Trumpers. This is why it's so hard to gauge enthusiasm among Trump voters. Not all Trump voters are Trump supporters. Some of us just see a vote for Trump as the best option on the table. But I personally would never tell my colleagues that I plan to vote for Trump. I do not think pollsters can "adjust their procedures" to control for this reality."
Not my words, but captures what I think is a huge sentiment often overlooked by the pollsters.
Oh I’m pretty sure that pollsters are well aware.
As well, something that isn’t as obvious maybe, is that Trump will likely motivate undecided or near decided to go vote than Harris will. “End of democracy and the US as you know it” is an easy sell for Trump and some will feel the urgency or motivation despite being apathetic to the whole thing. While abortion rights or felon president may. Be concerning to some it may not be concerning enough to get them out.
FSTO
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According to one of the panelists here, the US pollsters have been overestimating the Democratic vote since the 1950's.
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Sure, but that doesn’t translate to pollsters who call or email the people. It’s not like you have to tell your neighbours when you answer a poll.
If anything, this anonymity should result in more valid answers. And in my last trip through the US, people were not super shy about displaying their voting preferences.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
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Aware yes, able to account for it, no.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
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Ah the "anonymous" poll... trust is much higher in your world.
The ultimate valid, anonymous poll with sound methodology will be in 15 days. There are any number of visible and hidden dynamics that will impact who people vote for c not always aligned with who they may have claimed they’ll vote for in various fora. We’ll see soon enough.
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